Arsenal

[Ini8]

Well, the Arsenal fans pretty much said it all. I have no doubt that teams from Ligue 1 will be competitive in the future, but as of this moment, Monaco aren't better than Arsenal. You'd have to be seriously biased to claim that.

 

[Jair Ventura]

Our players are better because of their value, their statistical ratings, reviews.

What value, what statistical ratings, what reviews? Point towards them. Should be simple enough.

P.S.What's hilariously ironic is your second best player was bought from a mid table Ligue 1 side.

Our football is beautiful because it's what people say about it, fans and non fans alike.

Whether or not your football is beautiful is subjective. It's results are objectively mediocre.

We have the 5th largest fanbase in all of football, and the 4th highest value.

So?

We consistently make the champions league.

And consistently make early exits.

So much so that it'd be weird to see a group stage without Arsenal in it. Lots of clubs everywhere love playing against us, it attracts big crowds and a big spectacle.

What does any of this has to do with the quality of your players?

 

[messi2140]

Our players are better because of their value, their statistical ratings, reviews. Our football is beautiful because it's what people say about it, fans and non fans alike.

We have the 5th largest fanbase in all of football, and the 4th highest value. We consistently make the champions league. So much so that it'd be weird to see a group stage without Arsenal in it. Lots of clubs everywhere love playing against us, it attracts big crowds and a big spectacle.

They like to play Arsenal for a different reason

 

[linetty]

They like to play Arsenal for a different reason

 

[DrPepper]

Don't agree with them playing beautiful football either (anymore). They've become more pragmatic this season, trying to park the bus against Chelsea, Liverpool, Man City and Spurs really.

But I learned that when your favorite team takes a defensive approach it's beautiful counter attacking football and when the opposition does it it's parking the bus.

 

[KingMessi]

Our players are better because of their value, their statistical ratings, reviews. Our football is beautiful because it's what people say about it, fans and non fans alike.

We EA Sports now.

 

[Semi-Neutral]

Kurzawa and Fabinho are one of the best young full back tandems in the world, both having already earned caps for the senior sides of their respective countries despite their age. Kurzawa is first choice for France, Fabinho is just breaking through for Brazil. Both of them are products of two of Europe's best youth development systems in Real Madrid and Monaco.

Kondogbia has been a French international since he was 15, winning the U20 WC in 2013 playing in the middle alongside Pogba. He's one of the highest valued young defensive mids in the world.

Same as Kondogbia, Yannick Ferreira Carrasco has been an international since he was 15, except he plays for Belgium. He's currently experiencing a breakout season on the club level and is seeing his value increase tremendously. Very few attacking mids/LW's of his age group will fetch more on the transfer market.

Martial is one of the highest valued strikers of his age group, if not the highest valued, being a legitimate wonder kid producing at the senior level. Same story with Benardo Silva of Portugal who came up through the Benfica youth system. Highly valued wonder kid killing it on the first team.

I could go on, but Monaco is stacked with young players of class whose value confirms their quality. Wisely, Monaco added established veterans such as Berbatov, Moutinho, and Falcao to help bring the younger guys along. They're no doubt better situated for the future than Arsenal, who'd have to shell out 100m+ to fill their youth system with comparable depth of talent.

So they've done well for their youth teams and are earning an international cap or two. Wow. For every "wonderkid" who succeeds out there, there are three more who flop or never reach their potential. Ozil, Cazorla, Alexis, Ospina, Mertesacker, Koscielny, Ramsey, Szczesny, Welbeck, Wilshere, Walcott, Giroud, Gibbs, Debuchy, Rosicky and Ox are all regular international players, and have performed at the highest stage, not just in the U20 World Cup. There's also players that face insanely stiff competition, like Monreal and Arteta, and players who are just breaking out this season, like Coquelin and Chambers. And there's also players who are beasts at international level but aren't good enough for us, like Podolski and Campbell. And yet because these guys have high potential they're better than our proven starting XI?

Arsenal got knocked out. Deservedly so.

Well's that what we're arguing about, I don't think it was deserved at all.

P.S.What's hilariously ironic is your second best player was bought from a mid table Ligue 1 side.

Don't see what's so funny about it. No one's saying that Monaco has no good players, but at the same time I can't fathom how anyone could argue that Monaco is better than Arsenal.

Still have no idea how one quarterfinal is a better record than five round of sixteens... Would you rather have a player who scores a hattrick every five games or a player who scores a goal a game?

 

[Jair Ventura]

So they've done well for their youth teams and are earning an international cap or two.

They will be occupying core positions for their respective national teams. They were groomed for it.

Wow. For every "wonderkid" who succeeds out there, there are three more who flop or never reach their potential. Ozil, Cazorla, Alexis, Ospina, Mertesacker, Koscielny, Ramsey, Szczesny, Welbeck, Wilshere, Walcott, Giroud, Gibbs, Debuchy, Rosicky and Ox are all regular international players and have performed at the highest stage, not just in the U20 World Cup.

Awesome, looks as if you have as many international regulars as Monaco. Thank you for emphasizing my point. But, looking at your list a few things stand out:

- Wilshire, Ox, Walcott, Gibbs, Welbeck, and Ramsey are all mediocre players of mediocre international squad(s). Not a single one of them would be called up for France/Brazil, the primary countries of origin of Monaco's players, nor were/are any of them held in the same esteem as Kurzawa, Kondogbia, Martial, Fabinho, or Benardo Silva in terms of international potential.

- Koscielny, Giroud, and Debuchy are all from mid table Ligue 1 sides. Giroud, for example, came up in Ligue 2 and didn't make any international caps for any age group until he was 24. At 28, he's already losing preference to Griezman, Lacazette, and Fekir; players of the very same age group of those I've been referring. I'm confident that's the same case with Koscielny and Debuchy as well, who are being replaced by Varane, Zouma, Mangala, Amavi, Kurzawa, etc. Again, same age group.

There's also players that face insanely stiff competition, like Monreal and Arteta, and players who are just breaking out this season, like Coquelin and Chambers. And there's also players who are beasts at international level but aren't good enough for us, like Podolski and Campbell. And yet because these guys have high potential they're better than our proven starting XI?

I didn't say Monaco had a better starting 11, I've argued that Monaco and Arsenal are the same level, something you've yet to be able to objectively dispute. But yes, had Monaco not unexpectedly sold James and Falcao, they'd have a stronger starting XI than Arsenal. As it stands, the latter's is stronger, but not enough so that it separates the two clubs distinctively in overall class.

Well's that what we're arguing about, I don't think it was deserved at all.

It was deserved. You lost 3-1 at home to a bunch of kids.

Don't see what's so funny about it. No one's saying that Monaco has no good players, but at the same time I can't fathom how anyone could argue that Monaco is better than Arsenal.

That isn't the argument, the argument is that the two clubs are the same level. I've yet to see anything to dispute that.

Still have no idea how one quarterfinal is a better record than five round of sixteens... Would you rather have a player who scores a hattrick every five games or a player who scores a goal a game?

It's more impressive because Monaco just recently started receiving the necessary investments to compete continentally. 4 years ago they weren't even a top flight club, and now they're knocking out the EPL's best with no named academy kids, reaching stages of European competition that Arsenal with all it's notoriety, and all it's wealth, cannot.

 

[Jenks]

You're delusional if you think that Wilshere and Ramsey would not have been at least called up by France. It wasn't that long ago that they were using wasters like Malouda in the middle. And Monaco is not 'knocking out the EPL's best', they did it once, after the most shambolic defensive display from Arsenal in years... then got dominated at home. Bradford's win over Chelsea was more comprehensive than your win over Arsenal. I don't doubt the trajectory Monaco is on, but no manager in Europe would rather face Arsenal than them in the knock-out stage of a European competition.

 

[Hamzah]

I'm sure they'd have been called up but they are still mediocre players, Ramsey is the best of that lot and is what I consider above average but nowhere near top class.

I'm sure plenty would rather play arsenal, though both sides are easy. You know you are pretty much guaranteed to knock arsenal out if you are even half decent. Monaco could get lucky however.

 

[Semi-Neutral]

OK, I don't think there's anything I can say to convince you, and there's definitely nothing you can say to convince me that Monaco is better than Arsenal, so I'll stop talking about this. Might revisit this sometime in the future.

 

[Jair Ventura]

You're delusional if you think that Wilshere and Ramsey would not have been at least called up by France. It wasn't that long ago that they were using wasters like Malouda in the middle

Called up over Pogba, Matuidi, Gonalons, Payet, Fekir, Kondogbia? Isn't happening.

And Monaco is not 'knocking out the EPL's best', they did it once, after the most shambolic defensive display from Arsenal in years...

*yawn* Always with the excuses.

then got dominated at home.

The particulars of European football seems lost on English fans. 1 of your 2 goals in the 2nd leg was created from a direct error from Kurzawa. Without it, you'd have walked away from the principality with a 1-0 win, exactly what Monaco was playing for.

Bradford's win over Chelsea was more comprehensive than your win over Arsenal.

No, it wasn't.

I don't doubt the trajectory Monaco is on, but no manager in Europe would rather face Arsenal than them in the knock-out stage of a European competition.

Why not? Arsenal is an easy out.

 

[Jenks]

Called up over Pogba, Matuidi, Gonalons, Payet, Fekir, Kondogbia?

Is that what I said? I don't believe I did. Some of those are debatable, but I don't have the patience or inclination, either way you have definitely called up worse players than Wilshere and Ramsey on a fairly regular basis. You have Sissoko in your current squad for example.

*yawn* Always with the excuses.

It's not an excuse, it's a reason. You will struggle to find anyone here who doesn't think that that was a horrendous defensive display even by Arsenal standards, check the Champions League thread and this one at the time if you like. Also, Arsenal are not "the EPL's best" by any stretch of the imagination.

The particulars of European football seems lost on English fans. 1 of your 2 goals in the 2nd leg was created from a direct error from Kurzawa. Without it, you'd have walked away from the principality with a 1-0 win, exactly what Monaco was playing for.

You? I'm not an Arsenal fan, I just value sanity. You can just as easily credit Monaco's goals with mistakes as you can Arsenal's.

No, it wasn't.

You're either blinded by bias or you didn't see the game. Bradford put four past Chelsea at Stamford Bridge, and some quality goals too. They also didn't lose at home either.

Why not?

Because Arsenal are a better team than Monaco with better players, and everyone knows it. Not by a huge amount, but still.

 

[Jair Ventura]

Is that what I said? I don't believe I did. Some of those are debatable, but I don't have the patience or inclination, either way you have definitely called up worse players than Wilshere and Ramsey on a fairly regular basis. You have Sissoko in your current squad for example.

Sissoko is as average as Wilshere and Ramsey, yes. May explain why he wasn't called for the friendlies against Brazil and Denmark even despite Pogba's injury.

It's not an excuse, it's a reason. You will struggle to find anyone here who doesn't think that that was a horrendous defensive display even by Arsenal standards, check the Champions League thread and this one at the time if you like.

It's an excuse.

Also, Arsenal are not "the EPL's best" by any stretch of the imagination.

They're a top 3 EPL side. Not very much separating Arsenal and City.

You? I'm not an Arsenal fan, I just value sanity. You can just as easily credit Monaco's goals with mistakes as you can Arsenal's.

I didn't credit Arsenals goal as anything, rather, it's how the goal was classified in the scorebook.

http://www.whoscored.com/Matches/904253/Live

You're either blinded by bias or you didn't see the game. Bradford put four past Chelsea at Stamford Bridge, and some quality goals too.

And Monaco put 3 past Arsenal at the Emirates, while allowing only 1. A 2 point differential both ways, except the UCL is a much grander stage than the FA cup.

They also didn't lose at home either.

What are you talking about? The FA cup has no return leg.

Because Arsenal are a better team than Monaco with better players, and everyone knows it. Not by a huge amount, but still.

They may be a slightly better team, but the clubs are of the same tier. My point.

 

[Jenks]

Sissoko is as average as Wilshere and Ramsey, yes. May explain why he wasn't called for the friendlies against Brazil and Denmark even despite Pogba's injury.

He was in your last squad, and both Wilshere and Ramsey are comfortably better players, ergo they would both be able to get into a France squad. Although I've forgotten why this is even a point of contention given that Arsenal have Ozil, Rosicky, Cazorla etc.

It's an excuse.

Compelling counter-argument

They're a top 3 EPL side. Not very much separating Arsenal and City.

City aren't the best the EPL has to offer either, Chelsea are, and there's plenty between Chelsea and Arsenal. And again, a sample size of... one, is not worth drawing conclusions from. If this tie is evidence of Monaco being on Arsenal's level than Bradford City are ready for the Premier League.

And Monaco put 3 past Arsenal at the Emirates, while allowing only 1. A 2 point differential both ways, except the UCL is a much grander stage than the FA cup.

The stage is irrelevant, certainly less relevant than the calibre of opposition anyway.

What are you talking about? The FA cup has no return leg.

It does if you draw the first game.

They may be a slightly better team, but the clubs are of the same tier. My point.

Your point seems to change fairly regularly.