10 - Lionel Messi - v4

[Flavia]

Messi wouldn't have won as much as he did with Barcelona some place else. Barcelona would still have dominated without Messi, due to the insane generation of Xavi, Iniesta, Pique, Alves and other world class stars, but probably not to the degree of "best team ever" talk that surrounded Pep's team (in which Messi shined the brightest). Imo, Messi wasn't the element that made Barcelona a great team. He was the element that made us more than a "normal" great team though, a team that will be talked about for generations to come.

You really can't know that. Somehow I think he would. Barça wouldn't dominate like we did without him. Messi was the biggest factor for so many titles. And if rm had him, they'd be much stronger, and would had won a lot of titles.

 

[Bran the Greenseer]

If Messi was on rm they probably wouldn't have Ronaldo (Hell we might have Ronaldo ) And without the golden core I doubt Messi would be able to will RM to the amount of titles Barca won. Especially since we know how dominant Barca 08-12 was without Messi (Spain essentially). We probably would've won less titles although maybe might've won two CLs still since Xavi and Iniesta had HUGE contributions to those runs.

 

[footyfan]

Of course he would be the same player. He played like that since a little kid. He'd probably have more bdors, though. Uncle flo would make it happen.

I don't think he would have been the same player. It's my belief that La Masia and Barca's emphasis on passing play and moves have contributed significantly to shaping the player Messi is today.

 

[Messi983]

Please stop talking about that. I can't even imagine Messi in that ugly white shirt or Penaldo in Barça.

 

[serghei]

You really can't know that. Somehow I think he would. Barça wouldn't dominate like we did without him. Messi was the biggest factor for so many titles. And if rm had him, they'd be much stronger, and would had won a lot of titles.

I can't know that. But that also applies to those who say Messi woud've won just as much in another team. Not very likely imo.
Messi was the biggest factor for so many titles. Agree only if by factor you mean "player". Because Pep's Barcelona would've worked without Messi as well, to a very high level of football. Messi just made it no-contest for me.

If Real Madrid had Messi, during our Pep period (2009-11), it's difficult to predict what would've happened. My guess is we would've still dominated Madrid, just because Pep's team was total football, and the style in which we played went beyond the presence of just one player.

In other words, I think Barcelona without Messi would've won more than another team with Messi during 2009-11. Both would've been less successful than Barcelona with Messi probably, as it's the perfect team - player match.

 

[Flavia]

I can't know that. But that also applies to those who say Messi woud've won just as much in another team. Not very likely imo.
Messi was the biggest factor for so many titles. Agree only if by factor you mean "player". Because Pep's Barcelona would've worked without Messi as well, to a very high level of football. Messi just made it no-contest for me.

If Real Madrid had Messi, during our Pep period (2009-11), it's difficult to predict what would've happened. My guess is we would've still dominated Madrid, just because Pep's team was total football, and the style in which we played went beyond the presence of just one player.

In other words, I think Barcelona without Messi would've won more than another team with Messi during 2009-11. Both would've been less successful than Barcelona with Messi probably, as it's the perfect team - player match.

I doubt Barça would have any treble, for example. And midfield only don't win games. rm would also be a different team with Messi on it, and he can adapt to any system. he's also lethal in a counter attack setup. Barça's dominance, if it happened, wouldn't be as big as it is/was with Messi.
I remember Pep's Barça struggling in the games Messi didn't play. He was the key factor for Pep too.

 

[serghei]

I doubt Barça would have any treble, for example. And midfield only don't win games. rm would also be a different team with Messi on it, and he can adapt to any system. he's also lethal in a counter attack setup. Barça's dominance, if it happened, wouldn't be as big as it is/was with Messi.
I remember Pep's Barça struggling in the games Messi didn't play. He was the key factor for Pep too.

Hard to tell if we would've had any treble or not. Inter and Bayern won trebles and didn't have a Messi. You can win a treble without giving masterclass performances week in, week out.

Midfield don't win games, but if it wasn't for Messi, a world class player would be there nonetheless in his place. Imo, we would still be competitive enough to win a lot of titles, given the quality we had in all departments.

Agree about Barca's dominance not the same without Messi, because dominance doesn't mean only winning. It's more about how you win, than just winning. Messi added the touch of genius that was needed for that team to become legendary.

I wouldn't say Messi was the key factor for Pep, not him or any other player. A player of his class certainly makes a manager's life easier, but to me, Pep's Barcelona wanted to play a certain way, with or without Messi. The system and Pep's ideals about how to play the game came first, and the players followed him. Including Messi.

 

[Total-Football]

The thing with messi.. we play as a team without him.. we defend as a unit.. and in the offense phase we play with solidarity.. while with messi (same with all legendary players )at one point the performance of the team depends on those players. Players think about how to get the ball to messi wherever he is whether marked or not..you can see this problem against top sides, in 2015 the team was out of ideas until messi decided to fuck bayern up ; because he was in the mood, against atletico , messi plays with a bad mood we dont create anything.. same happens to real madrid with ronaldo.. and barca's ronaldinho. My ideal team is the one jupp built, guardiola (before messi gained his legendary status ).. no one is more important than the team.

I feel that the same thing is going to happen with neymar a couple years from now.. you can see we are building around him.

 

[Flavia]

Hard to tell if we would've had any treble or not. Inter and Bayern won trebles and didn't have a Messi. You can win a treble without giving masterclass performances week in, week out.

Midfield don't win games, but if it wasn't for Messi, a world class player would be there nonetheless in his place. Imo, we would still be competitive enough to win a lot of titles, given the quality we had in all departments.

Agree about Barca's dominance not the same without Messi, because dominance doesn't mean only winning. It's more about how you win, than just winning. Messi added the touch of genius that was needed for that team to become legendary.

I wouldn't say Messi was the key factor for Pep, not him or any other player. A player of his class certainly makes a manager's life easier, but to me, Pep's Barcelona wanted to play a certain way, with or without Messi. The system and Pep's ideals about how to play the game came first, and the players followed him. Including Messi.

I think you're underrating Messi's impact quit a lot. He was the key factor for Pep's Barça, and for Tito's, Lucho's... He singlehanded saved Barça many times thru out the years. More than any other player, for any team. It really wouldn't be the same without him, and whoever had him would have an advantage.

 

[serghei]

I think you're underrating Messi's impact quit a lot. He was the key factor for Pep's Barça, and for Tito's, Lucho's... He singlehanded saved Barça many times thru out the years. More than any other player, for any team. It really wouldn't be the same without him, and whoever had him would have an advantage.

Of course that whoever has Messi has an advantage. That's beside the point, since I'm not denying that at all. The idea behind my comment is that Barca would've been a great team without Messi as well. It's not just Messi that made that team special, it was a large array of factors involved, so if you take out one factor (the presence of Messi), but leave the rest in their place, the team still works to a high degree because the platform is still there and so are most of the pieces which make it work. Obviously it wouldn't be as close to unbeatable as with Messi in it, but great enough to compete and win many titles. We already saw what a working platform is, even without Messi, since we beat Madrid 4-0 and Messi came in at 3-0. That's the sign of a great great team. Even if you take away the best player in it, and one of the best ever, the rest are still absolute world class, capable of trashing their biggest rival on their home ground.

The fact that Barca's golden period happened to also be Spain's golden period at NT level is not a coincidence, and it does actually underlines that the generation Barca had during Pep and later was exceptional, and does not limit to just Messi. I don't see how it is controversial to say Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets, Alves, Pique, Villa, Henry, Eto'o, Abidal and other absolute world beaters in their position would've still formed a great team in the absence of Messi. It's really not.

 

[Flavia]

Of course that whoever has Messi has an advantage. That's beside the point, since I'm not denying that at all. The idea behind my comment is that Barca would've been a great team without Messi as well. It's not just Messi that made that team special, it was a large array of factors involved, so if you take out one factor (the presence of Messi), but leave the rest in their place, the team still works to a high degree because the platform is still there and so are most of the pieces which make it work. Obviously it wouldn't be as close to unbeatable as with Messi in it, but great enough to compete and win many titles. We already saw what a working platform is, even without Messi, since we beat Madrid 4-0 and Messi came in at 3-0. That's the sign of a great great team. Even if you take away the best player in it, and one of the best ever, the rest are still absolute world class, capable of trashing their biggest rival on their home ground.

The fact that Barca's golden period happened to also be Spain's golden period at NT level is not a coincidence, and it does actually underlines that the generation Barca had during Pep and later was exceptional, and does not limit to just Messi. I don't see how it is controversial to say Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets, Alves, Pique, Villa, Henry, Eto'o, Abidal and other absolute world beaters in their position would've still formed a great team in the absence of Messi. It's really not.

A great team, surely. But rm have had great teams since 2008 too. My point is Barça wouldn't dominate as much without Messi. Spain is not the best team to make a parallel. It wasn't only Barça players that made the team great, and club football is more competitive anyway.

 

[gasgas]

You guys think this team wouldnt win the treble every year?


...........................Navas
Carvajal Ramos ...................Pepe..........Marcelo
..........................Casemiro.....
............Kroos...............................Modric
.............Messi........Benzima....Crybaby

Crybaby would even score 100 goals a season from those Messi throughballs

 

[Vlom]

In other words, I think Barcelona without Messi would've won more than another team with Messi during 2009-11. Both would've been less successful than Barcelona with Messi probably, as it's the perfect team - player match.

Why "probably" ? Me think every team would be as successfull as "Barcelona with Messi".

I mean, what does he do that's so special really, almost nothing in 10 years.

 

[xXKonan]

According to Sport Lucho expects Messi to be back by Deportivo and could play 30 mins in that game.

 

[TornAndFrayed]

incoming consensus that it's too soon ?