Club World Cup

[jamrock]

Rodrygo is significantly better than Torres TBH.

He would do well for us on the left wing as a Nico alternative.

His issue is while very good, he thinks he's better than he really is and doesn't work hard enough off the ball.

 

[ThwiX]

Ferran had more G+A in laliga last season than every Rodrygo's season bar 22/23. And Ferran played way less minutes.

We as Barca fans should know better than anyone that stats can be very misleading. We have Yamal, who doesn’t have spectacular G+A stats by any means, before we had the eternal Messi vs. CR7 debate etc. Ferran is a great squad player, no doubts, but to even compare him to Rodrygo who bailed them out several times when it looked like they would finally be eliminated from the CL? Can’t let that fly. That little clutch fucker broke my heart too many times.

 

[vegitot]

We as Barca fans should know better than anyone that stats can be very misleading. We have Yamal, who doesn’t have spectacular G+A stats by any means, before we had the eternal Messi vs. CR7 debate etc. Ferran is a great squad player, no doubts, but to even compare him to Rodrygo who bailed them out several times when it looked like they would finally be eliminated from the CL? Can’t let that fly. That little clutch fucker broke my heart too many times.

Not saying Ferran is as good as Rodrygo. But that NK guy tried to described Ferran is a segunda level or something, which is not true, especially Ferran's last season.

 

[NKMaribor]

I'm sure that Garcia guy or whatever isn't close to half of Ferran and he already benched Rodrygo.

Yeah, EPL team may spend big to buy him if RM are smart enough to sell.

The reason why Rodrygo did not feature in Club WC, is due to technical decision. Meaning, club has put him on transfer list. While before, it was Vini and co. who benched him. Garcia has nothing to do with it.

Ferran Ballon d Or lite!

 

[NKMaribor]

Not saying Ferran is as good as Rodrygo. But that NK guy tried to described Ferran is a segunda level or something, which is not true, especially Ferran's last season.

Ferran is the last player i would have thought in comparison to Rodrygo. Because, he aint nowhere near his quality. Hence, i did not mention him. You did and some other poster before you, with weak analogy. To which i have responded in comparison to Rodrygo he is a donkey. In short its like trying to compare Modrić and Parejo. A bit extreme considering Modrić is goat, but you get the point.

 

[Don Juan Laporta Estruch]

Ferran is the last player i would have thought in comparison to Rodrygo. Because, he aint nowhere near his quality. Hence, i did not mention him. You did and some other poster before you, with weak analogy. To which i have responded in comparison to Rodrygo he is a donkey. In short its like trying to compare Modrić and Parejo. A bit extreme considering Modrić is goat, but you get the point.

Bona dia 🥂








NadapleteMaribor ➡️

 

[MonteCuler]

No, he won't.

For starters, Lamine is a teenager who's already overplayed. You can't have him play almost every game at his age AND also expect him to trackback and defend. The consequences can be damning - burnout, injuries, lack of efficacy. If there was a capable sub who would allow him to rest without a significant drop in quality, then sure a conversation can be had. But until then, we are a fairly young side to allow our starboy to take up positions in the opposition half sans worrying about defensive duties. He's our best creative attacker and he manages his minutes rather smartly on the pitch. Even Flick has alluded to the same.

That's too much sense for someone who wants to build a team of 11 Ferran's and win everything

People like him don't understand. Football's not all about running and pressing. Quality makes the difference

Lamine is pressing very well and there are no problems with this yet

 

[Birdy]

Even after yesterday's PSG-RM match, I still can't believe you are still willing to die on this notion that Messi still can't compete in the highest level. Fine, I'll continue this dance with you.

1. No, this is what you concluded with your own words "I make a simple point: watch MEssi tonight against a team that arguably is among current Europe's elite to see his current level". This is not an indication whatsoever.

2. You don't think Busi didn't try to retain possession by not moving? How would you know that he didn't try to do ay of the things that I mentioned? You mentioned that you only seen PSG vs Inter Miami and not the other Miami games.

3. What do you mean there's no stats? I gave you the Sofascore stats, which is more objective than your eye-test. You want another stat? Messi created more big chance vs PSG with an MLS side than Real Madrid's entire squad yesterday.

4 and 5. Passing and playmaking is a a whole different skill lol Dribbling is still good enough, see point #2 to which I also gave you an objective stat of dribbling. Again, you forget the point again that he was injured throughout the tournament, so this is why we are going in circles for this.

6. Sure, decline in acceleration happened which is only natural. It's the board's job to make sure all weaknesses for all players are covered to the best possible way and the board failed miserably on that. This relates to point number 7.

8. Because nothing else has declined? Courage has nothing to do with it. I'm going with eye-test, stats, general consensus, watching games week in and week out.

1. You misunderstood. Of course I drew a conclusion from the PSG-Miami game, because PSG is among Europe's elite, and I wanted to see what you quoted. That's one thing.

Another thing is the point you make whether one can generalize from 1 game against the best to all of Europe's elite. That's a valid point, and my reply is that this is not a conclusion about Europe's elite in general, but it is very much a strong indication.

2. Yes, I watched only PSG-Miami game. Since you watched all their games, it's your burden to prove your point.
I told you how dribbles are calculated. You are free to prove why Busi is not top of the list

3. Sofascore's are not stats. These are ratings, and despite all best efforts to make them seem objective, there are never thus. A stat is a specific metric. Currently, there is no stat worldwide in football data science that measures what I pointed out: number of people dribbled at x amount of time at x speed.

4. Passing and playmaking are genus and species of the same skill. Playmaking is making final balls that can become assists. Which skill he still has as in 2018. This and static kicks like pens and free-kicks are the only skills he hasn't declined.

6. No, the board's job is not to cover or mask Messi's decline. Board's job is to do the best for the team and renew the squad in general when time comes.

You still can't answer why no team at club level with Messi in it was not only successful but even competitive in Europe past 2019. There is a reason for it, and Messi is in the core of the reason why

8. You are ultra-subjective in your judgment, and you don't even pretend to try to be objective. I am not moving point number 1. If you can't concede that his dribbling run skill has declined, there is no point in further analyzing.

PS: you are willing to die on a hill that the last sane person stopped trying in 2023. There is a reason Messi is not currently playing in Europe

 

[jamrock]

Madrid needs to sell there entire squad and just buy Messi, since Messi was better than the other 22+ players that played against PSG for inter Miami and Madrid.

Madrid city council needs to come up with a new way to give Madrid 300m, they need it.

Inter Milan too actually, big tug of war between inter and Madrid for Messi in the coming weeks.

 

[soul24rage]

1. You misunderstood. Of course I drew a conclusion from the PSG-Miami game, because PSG is among Europe's elite, and I wanted to see what you quoted. That's one thing.

Another thing is the point you make whether one can generalize from 1 game against the best to all of Europe's elite. That's a valid point, and my reply is that this is not a conclusion about Europe's elite in general, but it is very much a strong indication.

2. Yes, I watched only PSG-Miami game. Since you watched all their games, it's your burden to prove your point.
I told you how dribbles are calculated. You are free to prove why Busi is not top of the list

3. Sofascore's are not stats. These are ratings, and despite all best efforts to make them seem objective, there are never thus. A stat is a specific metric. Currently, there is no stat worldwide in football data science that measures what I pointed out: number of people dribbled at x amount of time at x speed.

4. Passing and playmaking are genus and species of the same skill. Playmaking is making final balls that can become assists. Which skill he still has as in 2018. This and static kicks like pens and free-kicks are the only skills he hasn't declined.

6. No, the board's job is not to cover or mask Messi's decline. Board's job is to do the best for the team and renew the squad in general when time comes.

You still can't answer why no team at club level with Messi in it was not only successful but even competitive in Europe past 2019. There is a reason for it, and Messi is in the core of the reason why

8. You are ultra-subjective in your judgment, and you don't even pretend to try to be objective. I am not moving point number 1. If you can't concede that his dribbling run skill has declined, there is no point in further analyzing.

PS: you are willing to die on a hill that the last sane person stopped trying in 2023. There is a reason Messi is not currently playing in Europe

1. Messi had a better game vs PSG with an MLS side than Mbappe, Vini and Bellingham combined vs the same opposition with Real Madrid. Do you have anything to say for this to which you are ignoring?

2. So you don't think Busi can retain possession well? And no, you need to prove to me why Busi isn't high up there as I am countering your definition of what dribbling is with Busi.

3. Other people's eye test + general consensus + Sofascore is a lot more objective than your own personal subjective eye test. That's a fact.

4. Then by your definition of what a playmaking is, CR7 is a better playmaker than Xavi, Iniesta and Modric.

5. You think removing Messi would be the solution then? Then I guess Barca had a great time without Messi in 2022 and 2023 being grouped in the CL twice and failing miserably in the Europa League.

Barca. In the Europa League. Twice. Without Messi.

6. You saying that I am ultra-subjective is incredibly ironic because the only evidence that you provided to me is your personal eye test only while I brought you stats, general consensus and other arguments.

7. There is a reason Messi is not currently playing in Europe? There is a thing called family to which Messi is prioritizing after completing football. He had nothing to prove in Europe.

Buddy, your credibility in this forum is going down, down and down every time you keep on having this discussion with me. I advise you to just take the L and move on.

 

[Maradona37]

Not getting involved in the debate, but just seen playmaking was reduced to assists by Birdy. Yeah that is not true and one of my pet peeves. Assists are often a poor barometer of playmaking and creativity. Haaland gets more assists than Iniesta. Forward players tend to get basic, easy assists because they play so close to goal.

 

[Birdy]

1. Messi had a better game vs PSG with an MLS side than Mbappe, Vini and Bellingham combined vs the same opposition with Real Madrid. Do you have anything to say for this to which you are ignoring?

2. So you don't think Busi can retain possession well? And no, you need to prove to me why Busi isn't high up there as I am countering your definition of what dribbling is with Busi.

3. Other people's eye test + general consensus + Sofascore is a lot more objective than your own personal subjective eye test. That's a fact.

4. Then by your definition of what a playmaking is, CR7 is a better playmaker than Xavi, Iniesta and Modric.

5. You think removing Messi would be the solution then? Then I guess Barca had a great time without Messi in 2022 and 2023 being grouped in the CL twice and failing miserably in the Europa League.

Barca. In the Europa League. Twice. Without Messi.

6. You saying that I am ultra-subjective is incredibly ironic because the only evidence that you provided to me is your personal eye test only while I brought you stats, general consensus and other arguments.

7. There is a reason Messi is not currently playing in Europe? There is a thing called family to which Messi is prioritizing after completing football. He had nothing to prove in Europe.

Buddy, your credibility in this forum is going down, down and down every time you keep on having this discussion with me. I advise you to just take the L and move on.

1. Faulty argument no1000.
It happens that we watch week in week out Mbape, Vini, etc. against top teams, we can have an all-rounded opinion based on huge sample. Which we don't have with Messi.

2. off-topic, off-argument. You can't 'counter' my definition, because it's not mine.
It's the official definition by stat companies. Accept it, and then you have to answer yourself why Busi is not there.
The burden of proof lies with you.

3. General consensus and Sofascore ratings are by definition subjective. You used Sofsacore as stats, which are an objective metric. They are not stats.

4. When was Cristiano better at final balls compared to Xavi Iniesta Modric? Actually he was never...

5. Xavi's Barca 22/23, which was a totally limited team as I have explained in countless posts, was way more functional than the last Barca iterations with Messi in them.
No need to talk about Hansi's team, which would have been destroyed with Mess in it

AGAIN: there is a reason no club team with Messi in it was EVEN competitive (let alone challenging) in Europe past 2019

6. You didn't provide any meaningful stats. Sofascore ratings are not stats, and general consensus says nothing, as well as Ibra's PR statements.

7. LMAOL Appeal to emotion when being cornered
Only two teams had proposed to Messi in 2023: Al Hilal and Inter Miami.
No accident that both were from retirement leagues...

And no: Messi didn't prioritize 'family' in Miami. That's another whitewashing narrative by his fanboys.
He prioritized retiring in no-name league, with huge money, where he could recreate Amigos FC, which he indeed did with Busi Alba Suarez, etc. following

Bottom-line:
You refuse to properly answer the point I made since post no1. You asked me to be specific about what Messi has declined in. I replied properly with a specific skill: dribbling runs via many opponents.
I provided video evidence, as there is no stat currently capturing this.
Yet, after 5 posts, you haven't answered. You try to distort my point in every possible way to save yourself.
Sorry, I am not moving past point no1, and I will deflect all your attempts to diffuse the debate into other matters

PS: It happens that you are not the one decidings the Ls and the Ws.
So far, you have taken the L, because you haven't countered my point no1.

 

[jamrock]

Posted in the wrong trend, teams all over Europe trying to convince Messi to join, he's there only chance against PSG.

Statistics don't lie

 

[Maradona37]

Not buying this Reece James in midfield thing or experiment. 3-0 PSG.

 

[Andresito]

Start the game ffs