Xavi Hernández

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Bobo32

Senior Member
In my defence, I swear I saw talk about us winning the CL in here. Now we need to sell the whole team because everyone sucks.

If Barcelona can beat Real Madrid one week 4-0, why would they not be able to win the CL? Villarreal are in the semi finals now, what is this mentality?
Of course Barcelona should look to win the treble next year, and of course it's not a disaster for them to lose to Frankfurt after having beaten both Napoli and Galatasaray before, with a new manager and many new and young players.
 

ajnotkeith

Senior Member
If Barcelona can beat Real Madrid one week 4-0, why would they not be able to win the CL? Villarreal are in the semi finals now, what is this mentality?
Of course Barcelona should look to win the treble next year, and of course it's not a disaster for them to lose to Frankfurt after having beaten both Napoli and Galatasaray before, with a new manager and many new and young players.

Freak results happen.

In my opinion, Xavi benefitted from a little element of 'surprise' tactically as his system is quite radically different to how Barca has played for many seasons now.
We work the ball out wide and pepper the box with crosses, with a traditional number 9 that finishes off moves and play with many more fast and physical players before. Teams didn't know how to defend us at first. We are scoring almost all our goals from crosses.

But that game against Frankfurt showed that teams are going to have us worked out soon and we won't benefit from that anymore. They totally closed off the flanks and forced us to work the ball inside which we seemingly don't know how to do at this point in time. Galatasaray, Levante and Elche also gave us troubles but we scraped past them with lucky late winners and wonder goals.

In short, it's gonna be a lot harder for us in the next campaign as teams grasp our tactics and some of our luck runs out.

That doesn't mean Xavi hasn't done a great job so far ; this team at one point looked like it won't even make top4 and now we beat Madrid 4-0 in the Clasico. But there are more levels in football than people think and European teams which are more physical & with faster transitions than LL will continue to give us trouble if we don't improve further.
 

DonAK

President of FC Barcelona
Yeah.

It's a work in progress, and given the state of our team and financial situation it'll take some time.
 

Bobo32

Senior Member
Freak results happen.

In my opinion, Xavi benefitted from a little element of 'surprise' tactically as his system is quite radically different to how Barca has played for many seasons now.
We work the ball out wide and pepper the box with crosses, with a traditional number 9 that finishes off moves and play with many more fast and physical players before. Teams didn't know how to defend us at first. We are scoring almost all our goals from crosses.

But that game against Frankfurt showed that teams are going to have us worked out soon and we won't benefit from that anymore. They totally closed off the flanks and forced us to work the ball inside which we seemingly don't know how to do at this point in time. Galatasaray, Levante and Elche also gave us troubles but we scraped past them with lucky late winners and wonder goals.

In short, it's gonna be a lot harder for us in the next campaign as teams grasp our tactics and some of our luck runs out.

That doesn't mean Xavi hasn't done a great job so far ; this team at one point looked like it won't even make top4 and now we beat Madrid 4-0 in the Clasico. But there are more levels in football than people think and European teams which are more physical & with faster transitions than LL will continue to give us trouble if we don't improve further.

Perhaps you are correct and you are sooner to spot this trend than me, but I do not think Xavi is a one trick cross pony unable to adapt to different opponents defending differently. I think your explanation looks simplistic at first glance, but I will not argue against it as I will have to admit having watched a bit lazily lately, focusing on other things happening on the pitch. I think the problem has been more about a general underperformance from certain players together with a tendency from Xavi of over-trusting some players, leading to a dangerous mentality spreading among the players. I have seen hints of this, and then I have thought it has been Xavi getting his tactics wrong in some games more than the opponent figuring Xavi out...

Last time I started to quietly criticize/doubt Xavi a bit, he went on this unbeaten streak and won some very nice games. I think a lot is happening at the club and he has a lot to take into consideration, I continue to give him the benefit of the doubt and look forward to next season very much. I do not rule out the league yet, either.
 

Jadentheman

Active member
What preview?

Setien and Koeman had us looking good in this shit farmers leagues in spells

I don't want these Harry potter managers being good in spells, I want consistency!

I'm sick of these European humiliations

La Liga may be below quality at the moment but it's anything but farmers league. Teams are still performing well in CL
 

ajnotkeith

Senior Member
Perhaps you are correct and you are sooner to spot this trend than me, but I do not think Xavi is a one trick cross pony unable to adapt to different opponents defending differently. I think your explanation looks simplistic at first glance, but I will not argue against it as I will have to admit having watched a bit lazily lately, focusing on other things happening on the pitch. I think the problem has been more about a general underperformance from certain players together with a tendency from Xavi of over-trusting some players, leading to a dangerous mentality spreading among the players. I have seen hints of this, and then I have thought it has been Xavi getting his tactics wrong in some games more than the opponent figuring Xavi out...

Last time I started to quietly criticize/doubt Xavi a bit, he went on this unbeaten streak and won some very nice games. I think a lot is happening at the club and he has a lot to take into consideration, I continue to give him the benefit of the doubt and look forward to next season very much. I do not rule out the league yet, either.

Against Frankfurt, there were many tactical adaptations they made, but by far the most obvious one was the front 3. Since he came Xavi has had a clear idea of how he wants his front 3 to move and play.

It's clear that of the two wingers, Xavi likes his right winger to hug the touchline and spam crosses to Auba, being exclusively a creator (Dembele, Traore) and of the left winger, to be more of a 'false end' and come inside, combine with the team, assist in possession and move into the box (Ferran, Gavi). And he likes his 9 to frequent the penalty box, move around there and look for playable balls (Auba, Jutgla).

As a front 3, they all have simple and clear roles and due both to the tactics and the profiles of the players in question, it is very rigid. When it works, it works great. But because it's so simple it can also be adjusted for.

When Dembele received the ball, a swarm of Frankfurt players instantly descended on him blocking off the flank and forcing him to go backwards. Because he is instructed to hug the touchline and hardly ever come inside, he finds himself isolated in the position he is and has to either go backwards or go into a wall of Frankfurt players. They knew most of our goals come from Dembele crosses and that he is told to hug the touchline and cross. One threat removed from the game. When Traore came on this was even more evident.

When they marked Ferran, they actually let him go to the outside as you saw with some dribbles, because its his weak point as he doesn't produce much from there. He was able to get to the outside but didn't do anything and couldn't come across the box like he prefers, because they played him to the outside. When Ferran can't move into the box and combine with teammates, he doesn't do much as he isn't a traditional winger like Dembele. Another threat removed.

And because both the wingers were neutralised Auba was in a sea of Frankfurt players all game and the front 3 was 100 yards apart at all times. It was clear they marked Ferran and Dembele according to their tendencies.

When you have a more complex game system, the front 3 have alternating roles and tactics like this don't work. For example, Liverpool or City's front 3's are very dynamic and they are moving everywhere, going to the outside, cutting inside, moving into the box, so you can't map them out like that. But when Dembele or Traore are being told only to run down the wing and cross, it is easy to adapt and force them out of their game.

TL: DR : Simplicity works both ways. Simple instructions, like how Xavi tells Dembele and Traore to only cross, are great as they're easier to understand but the opponent can also more easily adjust for them. That's why multi-faceted players and multi-faceted instructions are important.
 
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Bobo32

Senior Member
Against Frankfurt, there were many tactical adaptations they made, but by far the most obvious one was the front 3. Since he came Xavi has had a clear idea of how he wants his front 3 to move and play.

It's clear that of the two wingers, Xavi likes his right winger to hug the touchline and spam crosses to Auba, being exclusively a creator (Dembele, Traore) and of the left winger, to be more of a 'false end' and come inside, combine with the team, assist in possession and move into the box (Ferran, Gavi). And he likes his 9 to frequent the penalty box, move around there and look for playable balls (Auba, Jutgla).

As a front 3, they all have simple and clear roles and due both to the tactics and the profiles of the players in question, it is very rigid. When it works, it works great. But because it's so simple it can also be adjusted for.

When Dembele received the ball, a swarm of Frankfurt players instantly descended on him blocking off the flank and forcing him to go backwards. Because he is instructed to hug the touchline and hardly ever come inside, he finds himself isolated in the position he is and has to either go backwards or go into a wall of Frankfurt players. They knew most of our goals come from Dembele crosses and that he is told to hug the touchline and cross. One threat removed from the game. When Traore came on this was even more evident.

When they marked Ferran, they actually let him go to the outside as you saw with some dribbles, because its his weak point as he doesn't produce much from there. He was able to get to the outside but didn't do anything and couldn't come across the box like he prefers, because they played him to the outside. When Ferran can't move into the box and combine with teammates, he doesn't do much as he isn't a traditional winger like Dembele. Another threat removed.

And because both the wingers were neutralised Auba was in a sea of Frankfurt players all game and the front 3 was 100 yards apart at all times. It was clear they marked Ferran and Dembele according to their tendencies.

When you have a more complex game system, the front 3 have alternating roles and tactics like this don't work. For example, Liverpool or City's front 3's are very dynamic and they are moving everywhere, going to the outside, cutting inside, moving into the box, so you can't map them out like that. But when Dembele or Traore are being told only to run down the wing and cross, it is easy to adapt and force them out of their game.

Well these roles are clear and obvious yes, but they can easily be tweaked too. I don't think City or Liverpool really play that much more fluidly with their attack all the time, especially Pep has had his wingers very stationary on the wings a lot of the time in City too, just as he did successfully with the very limited and poor Henry in Barcelona, for example. I don't think we should really look at it in isolation, if Dembele for example is told to always hug the line until he gets the ball, he shouldn't be given the ball in these circumstances when he cannot do anything with it, it is on the rest of the players to not play into a cul-de-sac.
Dembele is an inherently stupid and mistake prone player though, and all the more yesterday. Mingueza, Araujo and Pedri didn't give him the ball in the best spots either, I lay some blame on Mingueza for yesterday, he is not a great advancer of the ball from the RB position, and the entire right hand side looked easy to press. Left hand side wasn't much better either, Garcia and Alba looked a bit shaky, Gavi needs to improve his off-the-ball movement too, and while Ferran moves very well he isn't the one to make a lot happen from nothing.

I think some clear roles are needed, then it is a question of what roles, and about tweaking them and the dynamic vs an opponent. Xavi has failed many times with this, and hasn't shown a great ability to react in games, but he has also had his team look in control in most of his games in a way that Barcelona didn't for some years.

What I really wanted to see yesterday was a midfielder who DEMANDED the ball and who tried to make something happen when they got it. It looked very stale a lot of the time, they were content with circulating the ball until it ended up on an isolated Dembele for him to lose it... I do think that both Pedri and Gavi has some bad habits since last year that I hope they get rid of.
 

Total-Football

Senior Member
Most of the time in the post pep era it seems that barca plan is just passing the ball wih the hope that something happens and it never happens. With xavi its slightly different. Now we spam crosses. Haha.. Im speechless
 

Bobo32

Senior Member
TL: DR : Simplicity works both ways. Simple instructions, like how Xavi tells Dembele and Traore to only cross, are great as they're easier to understand but the opponent can also more easily adjust for them. That's why multi-faceted players and multi-faceted instructions are important.

I think it was Adin Osmanbasic or some other former spielverlagerung writer who 're-created' the entire Pep Barcelona team tactics from just giving each player one simple instruction. Maybe tomorrow I'll look for it, or if someone else know what I am thinking of please post!
There are paradoxes with this, a player can sometimes be a lot more creative when being told exactly what to do. I believe the best coaches can use simplicity to his advantage, it is about making the correct simple calls though.

I like Traore on the flank because he follows the simple orders and is thus very predictable for his team mates. Dembele is unpredictable for everyone, the only thing we know is he will fail with 1/2 to 1/3 of what he attempts.
 

Iniesta Ultra

Senior Member
Well these roles are clear and obvious yes, but they can easily be tweaked too. I don't think City or Liverpool really play that much more fluidly with their attack all the time, especially Pep has had his wingers very stationary on the wings a lot of the time in City too

If by "fluid" you mean City and Pool front three don't wander outside their respective positions much I agree, but they are fluid (City more than Pool) linking with each other and the mids in and around the box. City often play compact in their attack which is classic Pep Barca style which we've been lacking severely since Messi left. How rare is it for Dembele to enter the box ever, even if he doesn't want to attempt shooting he could still make more effective assist attempts if he's not so far from his passing targets all the time. Vini's really good at dribbling past defenders near the end line where it's an easy lob to Benzema. We know Torres can't do this but surely Dembele can to make it easier for Auba. I can't remember the last time Alba went to the end line to make an assist attempt which was his hallmark with Messi. Yes he's overplayed and tired but Xavi must've told him not to make those runs anymore, and he's mostly doing long wishful crosses now but we shouldn't base our plan A on desperate Auba/Luuk headers from long distance.

I really hope we re-develop our midfield dna. Many posters here like Birdy obviously think tiki taka's irrelevant to current speed football but I can never agree with that. No player can ever run as fast as the ball can be passed around/change directions, nor can any defender have 360 vision of potential tiki taka pass outlets. That we've pretty much relegated tiki taka as non-integral to dominant play isn't an argument that's in ineffective now. As ironic as it is citing Xavi is an appeal to authority also not a sound argument against its validity. We all know how worried Xavi is at succeeding and most likely he doesn't have faith Pedri, Dembele, Gavi can tiki taka. I wouldn't expect them to turn into Xavi, Iniesta, Busi level overnight but if the attempt is never made or discouraged then for sure our dna will continue to be exiled.

And I do feel sorry Busi doesn't have others to tiki taka with these days, if he did some of his defensive weaknesses wouldn't come to fruition.
 

Porque

Senior Member
Imo, the freak result is the Frankfurt result, and not the rest of our big recent wins.

Frankfurt showed us the way they were going to play, and the intensity they will bring in the first leg. Xavi rather arrogantly (or perhaps naively) decided to go with the same tactics and young midfield that got overrun, thinking that it now being a home game would be enough. And boy was he wrong.
 

FinBarcelonafan

Well-known member
Imo, the freak result is the Frankfurt result, and not the rest of our big recent wins.

Frankfurt showed us the way they were going to play, and the intensity they will bring in the first leg. Xavi rather arrogantly (or perhaps naively) decided to go with the same tactics and young midfield that got overrun, thinking that it now being a home game would be enough. And boy was he wrong.

To be honest, I think we lost this tie because our physical condition. Speed/quickness/muscle lost us. They were too strong and quick for us.

Also their offense was quick which is the worst poison for us. Good countering team.
 

Catta

Senior Member
We lost mostly because of a cone in goal, a crybaby at LB, a weakling as CB, a below average player as RB, and most importantly a corpse as a DM. If we had even average players from midtable teams in those positions, we wouldn't have conceded as many goals as we did.
 

Total-Football

Senior Member
We lost mostly because of a cone in goal, a crybaby at LB, a weakling as CB, a below average player as RB, and most importantly a corpse as a DM. If we had even average players from midtable teams in those positions, we wouldn't have conceded as many goals as we did.

So no problem with attack and guys like demebele scoring 1 goal per season?
 
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