Same argument that doesnt fit.
Barca have not tried in years to play the way Pep did or does.
Peps best teams have always had hard work, possession based players trying to dominate ball, press from front and when available be best in world on the break also.
Luchos Barca played on the break and gave up technique in midfield with likes of Rakitic in favour of giving freedom to a front three.
Valverdes Barca played more or less 442 a lot of the time with two forwards that barely ran and used likes of Paulinho and Rakitic to try and get legs behind them.
Since EV left...Barca still not got in players that Pep would have set up in a team to dominate ball and press from front.
It is a myth that Barca have been failing due to trying to play like Pep did. They have strayed massively from it and given up the basic ideals of Peps teams for most part with old players that cant run being spine of team.
Barca would be better served getting back towards how Pep plays. Which is nowhere near as one dimensional as likes of BBZ makes out.
Peps City dominate ball, but stilll all work hard, press, put in crosses when needed and take long range efforts when needed, break on opposition when can. They have about as much variety as any team going.
Ok, let's agree that I don't think that Pep is an idiot, that he is that bad, that his football is that bad etc.
I am just pissed at a cult following of 2008-2011 and on illusions which came from that era (some of them: we are more than a club, we don't buy a team = we produce it, lol or: La Masia is golden).
On top of those illusions, among our fans we have heavily overrating of everything from that era, where (only) our fans consider it as the best team ever, where Iniesta is ranked among Top 2-3 midfielders of all time and similar.
So, that era was one of the best of all time, but everything around it is overhyped at least a double among our fans.
Now, regarding Pep and our football.
For years, for majority of our fans, Barca's style is = Pep's style.
Which I don't agree since for example, Rijkaard's style was different, with more height, more counters, long shots, more corners, more crosses, more long balls, and less of Pep's mathematical football where he moved towards more possession-tiki-taka-triangles perfection and played less of long balls, long shots, true corners, crosses + headers. And of course, he "invented" Iniesta/David Silva type of players where Pep's favorite midfield and attacking line would consist of 6 David Silvas.
Further, he moved away from a No9 and he traded it for a mobile No9, false 9 or a midfielder at a no9 to get more movement and triangles.
So, while Pep's football in it's core is very similar to what we have played since 1991, but deep down it is a different version of Barca's football prior to Pep.
Now, regarding Pep's era, we often say: we shouldn't compare Pedri, Frenkie or anyone with Xavi or Iniesta because no one will be a new Xavi.
Maybe we should set the new rule: don't compare anyone with Pep in terms of Barca's football.
My point is: WHAT IF, as I am saying for years = our football in general is meh and not too good for the highest level, which stats are confirming?
Rememeber that since 1899 to 2006, we won only 1 CL.
Since 1990, we played Cruijff's football, yet during 16 years until 2006, we had one lucky CL win in 1992, one 0:4 defeat against Milan in 1994 and more or less group stage KOs, or quarterfinal defeats year after year against ANYONE.
So, if Cruijff's football from 90s is that good, why did we suck at it until 2006?
Further, the same with Spanish football. Till 2008, they had one final in 100 years of their history.
How on Earth can we claim that Spanish type of technical football is a successful football then?
And here is the answer:
WHAT IF BOTH Barca's and Spanish football are historically meh but they reached World class status due to 3 factors:
1. the only coach in the world who can make that style work perfectly = Pep
2. the best midfielder of all time for that style, Mr TikiTaka himself = Xavi (paired with Iniesta)
3. GOAT in his prime who was again paired = with the best coach for this style (Pep), the best midfielder ever for this style (Xavi), second best midfielder for this style (Iniesta)?
Now, if you analyze it deeper, you can see that BOTH Spain and Barca worked perfectly only in a short time span from 2008-2012, when we had:
1) Pep, prime Xavi, prime Iniesta, prime Messi at Barca
2) prime Xavi and prime Iniesta/Busi at Spain
And now, 90% of our fans (ok, this is my estimation) believe differently.
They don't think that Pep's era is an exception, but a rule.
Aka = Pep's football and how we played is something normal/given.
While for me, Pep's era is a freak incident when you consider how shit both Barca and Spain were since 1900 with our style of playing.
And now, for years, we have fans, socios and presidents who try to replicate Pep's era.
But my opinion is = we will never be able to replicate it.
And then people reply: ok, we don't need to be as good as back then, it will be good enough if we just come CLOSE to it.
BUt when Barca was close to it (pre Pep) and Spain (pre Xavi and post Xavi), they haven't won shit.
So, my question is: is a budget version of Pep's football good enough for anything except La Liga here and there?
I don't think so.
About Pep/Xavi/Messi/Barca/Spain, look at this:
Spain:
era 2008-2012:
Number of tournaments in total: 3
Wins: 3 out of 3
Barca:
2008-2012:
Number of CL attempts: 4
Wins: 2 out of 4
So, during that era, which for me is a freak accident, Barca and Spain combined played 7 big tournaments and won 5 out of 7.
But, now, the funny twist, look at what happened once when Pep-Messi-Xavi weren't together anymore:
Barca after 2012:
9 CL attempts, 1 win
Spain:
4 NT attempts, 0 wins
Pep:
8 CL attempts, 0 wins
So: Pep/Barca/Spain/Messi/Xavi had 5 out 7 wins from 2008-2012.
And after that they have: 21 attempts, 1 win
On the other hand, if we would add stats from pre-Pep/Xavi/Messi, it would look the same.
So, Barca's and Spanish history looks like this in short:
1900-2008: technical, eye pleasing, shit results
2008-2012: everything clicked perfectly, we had both eye pleasing football and results
2012 and later: the same as prior to 2008: technical with more or less shit results
So, again: is Pep's era a real possibility or a freak accident (just like getting Messi once in 100 years)?
Further, you and others often say: we didn't play like Pep at all after 2012.
I'll say: lol.
So, let's analyze it: we had a winning style which was winning every single trophy, and then what? One day we woke up and said: fuck that style, let's play slower, with less pressing, we don't want to win anymore?
You see, my opinion is:
1. we tried to play Pep's style since 2012, but:
1) when Pep left, we lost his brain, and Tito didn't know all of his tricks, so we lost a huge part of our tactical strength
2) teams adjusted to our football, so not only that we lost Pep, but teams learned how to close us down more efficiently than before
3) Xavi got old and we lost the brain, Mr TikiTaka himself and NO ONE in the world can connect the team as well as Xavi
I will make an analogy: you know when we watch Messi today.
And then you open his Youtube clips from 2011.
And then you say: wow, he lost a lot of his pace and dribbles.
And now: does he NOT WANT to play as good as in 2010 anymore or he just CAN'T play that way anymore, so he plays the way he plays?
Well, imo, the same is with Barca.
In 2013, we tried to play Pep's football, but we lost Pep, Tito got sick, Messi was injured.
In 2014, we had a shitty coach, Xavi was old and finished, we had injuries.
In 2015, we had the last dance of a dying team and won a CL with Lucho's style.
After that, Xavi and Iniesta were finished. Busi was half of a player he was. We lost Dani Alves.
All that was left from Pep's era was an older Messi, finished Busi and Pique.
And now, is it really true that we didn't try to play Pep's football anymore?
Or, more likely: we tried, but we were horrible at it, so we played some random mixture of Pep's football, granny style and EV's/Lucho's football.
Regarding Pep, who else played his style successfully for a few years?
No one.
Only Del Bosque, but NT football is different, teams are not well oiled.
Yet, Del Bosque had Xavi-Iniesta-Busi-Pedro-Fabregas-Pique from the same team who all understood TikiTaka and had an awesome chemistry.
And that was a huge advantage over other NT teams who had players from 20 different clubs without any chemistry.
So, who else played good version of Pep's football?
Imo, nobody?
We have a few younger coaches like Tuchel, but they play Pep's football with some newer ideas.
Yet, on Planet Barca, Puig is an awesome player for a lot of fans, turtle slow & always tired & master of hide and seek Pedri is the leader of our future midfield, lol, 173 cm tall Gavi will be a starter, 178 cm Fati will be the next leader after Messi.
Now, look at that core: Pedri-Gavi-Ansu. They are all short and more or less turtle slow.
And then people say: we don't play Pep's football.
Lol, of course.
No one can play Pep's football except Pep. And even he can't do anything with that style in a CL inspite of all Qatari millions.
For the end:
1. we can't play Pep's football without Pep and without players like Xavi/Iniesta. And without Messi to save our asses whenever needed.
We can only play a budget version of Pep's football if we hire let's say Xavi.
But that budget version will struggle to win La Ligas and I won't even mention a CL.
2. then, if we don't play Pep's football, what are the other options?
1) one of them is results oriented football like EV's football.
But our fans want both fun+results.
And even though EV won 2 La Ligas, he didn't offer fun and magic, so our fans hated and ridiculed him.
So, coaches like him are a no-go.
2) then we can play extremely budget version of Pep's football with budget Cruijffista coaches like Setien.
That guy tried to play Pep's football, but that type of football looks ridiculous without prime Pep/Xavi/Messi.
So, budget Pep was even worse than EV.
3) and then, the only option is to play something new.
But then we get to the problem from the start of my post where people don't yet believe that Pep's era was one in a century freak accident and that without him, our style is more or less shit and even shittier in a current era, where everyone took the best ideas from Pep's era and upgraded them with money and physique, yet we stayed on the same place with a budget team.
Now, when you add to this points from my first post:
1. Barcelona is historically much more impulscive and a chaotic club than even Real, Madrid, Juve
2. Barcelona is in the midst of independence issues, so they are emotional, the club is a symbol of Catalonia and that means that they need to stick with history, roots, a good image.
And the best image of Barca/history is = Pep's football, short technical midfielders, Barca DNA, fun football, La Masia.
That again means that we are stuck with chasing Pep's shadows. And if I am right in my estimations from above, then we are screwed with chasing Pep's shadows because we will watch a painfully shitty budget Pep's Barca for years.
3. on top of that, we have 1B debt, and we are stuck with Depays and similar players. How to play Barca's football with him? How to move forward with him?
4. and there's La Masia. A proud Catalan footballing academy that brought joys in the past.
Now add independency issues, emotions, Catalan need for a lot of domestic players due to independency issues (Laporta bought Eric, he has a strange love for Puig, he wanted Dani Olmo back).
So, we are stuck with La Masia and Catalan players.
4. and for the end, there is a problem with La Masia, where they believe that the year is still 2012 and that we are rulling the world with Xavi-Iniesta and triangles.
And all those kids do at La Masia is playing passes and triangles 24/7/365.
None of them is fast, none of them have muscles, none of them can shoot, none of them can defend.
And then you get Nico-Gavi-Puig-Pedri midfield where no one can shoot or dribble.
All they can do is pass, pass, pass till death.
5. for the end, football turned into a street-fighting sport in the last decade, with a lot of aggression and mental strength required.
Yet, from what I see, Catalans are extremely nice/humble/peaceful nation in general. Who don't fight, swear or cause troubles.
That DNA is paired with La Masia where they teach kids to be overly nice and humbe (choirboys), and then you get a team filled with overly nice Catalans who have to play due to independency issues, and yet they are even more humble and nice due to lessons learned in La Masia.
And then they meet dirtier players from Germany, Italy or especially UK and they get bullied insanely.
Then someone will reply: but we were able to win against bullies with Pep.
Well, we are going in circles: Pep-Messi-Xavi was once in a lifetime era and even they struggled against bullies in away KO matches.
All in all, our future is grim, and I am very very pessimistic.
On the other hand, being a part of this community is extremely fun because watching our fans, socios, presidents sticking with our DNA an waiting for how long will they do the same thing until they will move to someone else is extremely fun psychological and sociological experiment.
Our results will be shit, but at least (who want to learn) will be able to learn a lot about a human nature.
So, let's see after many years will people (1 by 1) from this forum will accept that we can't play Pep's football and let's see where we will move one day. If ever until we are alive.
Kisses and hugs
