Marco Verratti

[serghei]

While I agree with you that Verratti has to take one step more to become a true world class I really don't agree that Kroos is better in any way. For me Modric is 2 levels above Kroos.

I disagree. I think Kroos has attributes which Modric doesn't and viceversa. They complement each other very well. For example, Kroos has a crisp long ball which almost every single time finds Carvajal on he right or whoever's playing RW for Madrid (Benzema or especially Bale). It's impressive. He has a pretty narrow margin of error, but he hits that long ball with dead on accuracy every single time. I've been much more impressed with Kroos' passing delivery than Modric's. To me, Kroos has a wider arsenal as far as passing is concerned. He is similar to Xavi, just not as great in some aspects. But is really the type of player who can pass the ball with accuracy in situations where others can't.

Imo, Kroos has the absolute best diagonal pass in football at the moment. That's huge. I'd say Kroos is better than Verratti not as much in ability but in how he is exploiting that ability. Many talented players have failed to make the most out of their talent and ability. if Verratti doesn't do something big in the next 2-3 years, he's gonna fit that description. He's on the right track. He'll, the only way he made history until now, is being at the receiving end of the craziest comeback in CL history.

 

[clemente]

That 70m + Rakitic for him is probably worth for us, but thats an insult to Rakitic, I would kinda feel bad about it if it would happen.

Not at all. Take Verratti, and take Kroos for example. Really now, think for a second. Do you really think Verratti deserves to be considered at the same level as Kroos? No. We can call him world class as in a player of great ability, but he surely has some work to do to have the credentials and the results of a world class player in the truest sense of the word. This is the main argument for why he should have forced a move to Barcelona. To become as great of a player as the likes of Kroos and Busquets and others. He has the ability, but he doesn't have the results. Without the results, he can never be world class.

Being world class and being a winner is an instant connection. Verratti ain't a winner on a global scale. He ain't even close to that. Is not even a winner in France anymore, couldn't even win a league against a team made with less than a tenth of PSG's budget.

What a useless write, literally 0 points provided to talk about. Kroos is better? HOW? Ain't a winner? Its not even expected from him to win CL with PSG and he won league almost every time, what do you even mean by "ain't a winner"? That whole team is ranked top 5 team in the world because of him.

 

[Pepe Silvia]

Not at all. Take Verratti, and take Kroos for example. Really now, think for a second. Do you really think Verratti deserves to be considered at the same level as Kroos? No. We can call him world class as in a player of great ability, but he surely has some work to do to have the credentials and the results of a world class player in the truest sense of the word. This is the main argument for why he should have forced a move to Barcelona. To become as great of a player as the likes of Kroos and Busquets and others. He has the ability, but he doesn't have the results. Without the results, he can never be world class.

Being world class and being a winner is an instant connection. Verratti ain't a winner on a global scale. He ain't even close to that. Is not even a winner in France anymore, couldn't even win a league against a team made with less than a tenth of PSG's budget.

This is the messi will never be on maradonas level w o a world cup argument. Subjective.

 

[serghei]

That 70m + Rakitic for him is probably worth for us, but thats an insult to Rakitic, I would kinda feel bad about it if it would happen.



What a useless write, literally 0 points provided to talk about. Kroos is better? HOW? Ain't a winner? Its not even expected from him to win CL with PSG and he won league almost every time, what do you even mean by "ain't a winner"? That whole team is ranked top 5 team in the world because of him.

Kroos is better because he won more, played more games at the highest level and was decisive in them, make the right calls in his career to improve his chances to get what he wants in football, which is to win. He is a winner, both with Germany, and with Real Madrid, and is now rightly considered by mostly everyone to be one of the finest midfielders of his generation. I'd say he is the best midfielder from the post Iniesta generation.

You don't make the distinction between have the ability to do something, and actually doing something. There are tons of players in every sports who have a much higher ability that what they've achieved in their career. In the end, they're judged on what they've achieved, not on what their ability was.

So, talking about ability, yea, he's world class at this chapter. Talking about the whole package, he is not. And when up against a player like Kroos who absolutely has every single component that defines a great player, he comes up short. As he should until he proves otherwise. Can't do it at PSG? It's a free world, nobody keeps him with force there.

This is the messi will never be on maradonas level w o a world cup argument. Subjective.

Nothing in common imo. There is nothing subjective in saying Kroos has played more games at the highest level than Verratti, or that he won more, or that he was more decisive in high profile games. Their part of the same era as well. Nothig like Maradona - Messi debate.

 

[DonAK]

So you're saying Suarez wasn't a World Class player until he moved to Barcelona?

 

[serghei]

So you're saying Suarez wasn't a World Class player until he moved to Barcelona?

I believe that when a player that has the ability to be something, but isn't yet, he should not be treated as if he is. Suarez was smart when he moved to Barca. It was a maximization of his potential, which was greater than Liverpool and was limited by that team (with all due respect to Liverpool fans here).

So, yes, he wasn't exactly world class at Liverpool. Even the term, 'world class' defines something which is supposed to be a reference in the world. Suarez' European record before Barca is unimpressive.

I'd call him a player of world class abilty, but not a world class player if we're being exact.

 

[denn]

Suarez had one of the best seasons ever by one player in EPL. And he wasn't world class player

Stop embarassing yourself mate.

 

[serghei]

Suarez had one of the best seasons ever by one player in EPL. And he wasn't world class player

Stop embarassing yourself mate.

Dude. I even said his ability is world class. But his achievements before Barca weren't. The level you're playing at is also very important. You need to make sure you make the right choices so you can experience playing at the maximum level that your ability allows you to. This is what Suarez did, and by doing that he become a world class player in both ability and fulfillment of that ability.

We're talking about two distinct areas here. One is the ability to do something, and the other is actually doing that thing. One can have all the tools to do something but to still not do it because of other things, like poor judgment, lack of courage, lack of will, lack of ambition, presence of some vices etc. Even good things can block you from expressing and showing your ability at the highest level.

 

[DonAndres]

I disagree. I think Kroos has attributes which Modric doesn't and viceversa. They complement each other very well. For example, Kroos has a crisp long ball which almost every single time finds Carvajal on he right or whoever's playing RW for Madrid (Benzema or especially Bale). It's impressive. He has a pretty narrow margin of error, but he hits that long ball with dead on accuracy every single time. I've been much more impressed with Kroos' passing delivery than Modric's. To me, Kroos has a wider arsenal as far as passing is concerned. He is similar to Xavi, just not as great in some aspects. But is really the type of player who can pass the ball with accuracy in situations where others can't.

Imo, Kroos has the absolute best diagonal pass in football at the moment. That's huge. I'd say Kroos is better than Verratti not as much in ability but in how he is exploiting that ability. Many talented players have failed to make the most out of their talent and ability. if Verratti doesn't do something big in the next 2-3 years, he's gonna fit that description. He's on the right track. He'll, the only way he made history until now, is being at the receiving end of the craziest comeback in CL history.

I for sure rate Kroos as a top 5 midfielder at the moment, but it's not as black and white as you seem. Verratti isn't world class just because he isn't well achieved? Playing for RM vs PSG certainly makes a difference. I think it'd be easy work for Verratti to rack up back to back CL's at RM and a World Cup with Germany if he played in Kroos's place. Throughout any of his successful liga/CL/WC campaigns Kroos didn't give any uniquely dominant level of performance that Verratti can't match, nor any really decisive actions that led to victory in a way that couldn't have been done without him. Even when Bayern won the treble he was injured for the semifinals and final and they were able to decimate us 7-0 and then beat Dortmund without him. People count his performance vs Brazil in the 7-1 as one of the shining moments of his career but to me that game is actually a huge farce and they may as well have been playing Tahiti on that day, Brazil were literally that bad and it took nothing special to destroy them. Kroos is already one of the most well achieved players in the history of football. A world cup, a treble, back to back CL's (3 CL's total). Is he really the player that consistently elevated these teams to that glory? I think he's very fortunate to have that kind of trophy haul as he's been playing in teams with tremendous players, coaches, and systems that are powerful even without him there.

What's certainly even more true in the reverse case is that Kroos would likely not be able to take Italy to a WC, and surely wouldn't carry PSG to a CL title. At RM he benefits from having a great all round attacking squad with multiple creative players to force things. Modric is the key that runs the offense, but Marcelo/Carvajal and now Isco all play a great role in breaking down defenses. Kroos is almost more in a support role as the base or foundation of their passing play, where he admittedly does have excellent range, execution, and vision. He's fantastic in his role but somewhat limited in the impact he can really have. Even Bayern fans now say that what Thiago provides in terms of his ability to run the offense and be the main creative force is on another level to what Kroos provided as a ball distributor for them. Thiago and Modric are the prominent cases of that type of midfielder in football today, who dominate their teams' offensive projection. Verratti has the skillset to be that type of player but PSG's system isn't good enough and doesn't capitalize on using him as a main creative force, and I imagine in Barca his output would reach an entirely new level due to the system/players around him, even if he individually remains at the same level.

 

[Neeraj]

you

Dude. I even said his ability is world class. But his achievements before Barca weren't. The level you're playing at is also very important. You need to make sure you make the right choices so you can experience playing at the maximum level that your ability allows you to. This is what Suarez did, and by doing that he become all class in both ability and achievements.

I can see where you're coming from, but I don't think Suarez or Verratti are the right examples. Suarez was player of the season in EPL, had shown he is world class by single handedly taking a modest team to within touching distance of the title. I'd say you can argue he showed even more of his class in Liverpool than he does here, because he was the main man there and he's more of an out and out striker here. His achievements might be greater because of the team, but I don't see him having improved that much because of any unfulfilled potential. Veratti too - he has shown world class performances in CL many a times against top sides, including when they destroyed us.

I think your argument is more suited to someone like Pogba - who hadn't really shown enough on the big stages before his move to be claimed as absolutely WC (not like he has shown it after, but that's a different discussion

 

[DonAK]

I believe that when a player that has the ability to be something, but isn't yet, he should not be treated as if he is. Suarez was smart when he moved to Barca. It was a maximization of his potential, which was greater than Liverpool and was limited by that team (with all due respect to Liverpool fans here).

So, yes, he wasn't exactly world class at Liverpool. Even the term, 'world class' defines something which is supposed to be a reference in the world. Suarez' European record before Barca is unimpressive.

I'd call him a player of world class abilty, but not a world class player if we're being exact.

You're making a rather odd distinction here serghei.

You're basically saying you can be a World Class player, but not truly be a World Class player without some trophies to show for.

I think you're confusing yourself with a World Class player and an accomplished player.

 

[serghei]

I for sure rate Kroos as a top 5 midfielder at the moment, but it's not as black and white as you seem. Verratti isn't world class just because he isn't well achieved? Playing for RM vs PSG certainly makes a difference. I think it'd be easy work for Verratti to rack up back to back CL's at RM and a World Cup with Germany if he played in Kroos's place. Throughout any of his successful liga/CL/WC campaigns Kroos didn't give any uniquely dominant level of performance that Verratti can't match, nor any really decisive actions that led to victory in a way that couldn't have been done without him. Even when Bayern won the treble he was injured for the semifinals and final and they were able to decimate us 7-0 and then beat Dortmund without him. People count his performance vs Brazil in the 7-1 as one of the shining moments of his career but to me that game is actually a huge farce and they may as well have been playing Tahiti on that day, Brazil were literally that bad and it took nothing special to destroy them. Kroos is already one of the most well achieved players in the history of football. A world cup, a treble, back to back CL's (4 CL's total). Is he really the player that consistently elevated these teams to that glory? I think he's very fortunate to have that kind of trophy haul as he's been playing in teams with tremendous players, coaches, and systems that are powerful even without him there.

What's certainly even more true in the reverse case is that Kroos would likely not be able to take Italy to a WC, and surely wouldn't carry PSG to a CL title. At RM he benefits from having a great all round attacking squad with multiple creative players to force things. Modric is the key that runs the offense, but Marcelo/Carvajal and now Isco all play a great role in breaking down defenses. Kroos is almost more in a support role as the base or foundation of their passing play, where he admittedly does have excellent range, execution, and vision. He's fantastic in his role but somewhat limited in the impact he can really have. Even Bayern fans now say that what Thiago provides in terms of his ability to run the offense and be the main creative force is on another level to what Kroos provided as a ball distributor for them. Thiago and Modric are the prominent cases of that type of midfielder in football today, who dominate their teams' offensive projection. Verratti has the skillset to be that type of player but PSG's system isn't good enough and doesn't capitalize on using him as a main creative force, and I imagine in Barca his output would reach an entirely new level due to the system/players around him, even if he individually remains at the same level.

Playing for RM vs PSG is a choice. And since it is not something that is imposed on you, but actually a deliberate choice, why should it be out of the question, or used as an excuse? Verratti extending his contract with PSG is basically his choices limiting the ways his abilities can be exercised. That was a bad move for him, which is actually limiting him as a player.

Yes, what you say is true. But couldn't I just say that Kroos was also smarter than Verratti with his career choices. That he made a risky move going out of his comfort zone at Bayern and play in a different culture, for Madrid. It could have backfired, could have made real damage to his career. He made a call, and was the winner call. This is credit for Kroos and his judgment. It also goes to show he had ambition, decisiveness, courage, and a bunch of other things that count a lot as well.

You're making a rather odd distinction here serghei.

You're basically saying you can be a World Class player, but not truly be a World Class player without some trophies to show for.

I think you're confusing yourself with a World Class player and an accomplished player.

No, DonAK, I'm strictly saying that in order to be world class you have to have great ability and to show that abilty at the highest level. This means a wide variety of attributes, and it is mostly down to making the right career choices on top of having the required ability.

I can tell you that Kevin Durant is now a greater player then he was last year. He made the right career choice, and went to a team that allows him to make a difference. And he did, being the MVP of the Finals. That's what it's all about. There's no way to be among the very best in something, if you don't compete with the best in the final stages of the best competitions. It's every player's duty to keep improving, and if the environment that you're in is limiting you to achieve the best version of yourself, you make the right calls to fix that. Or you stay there, never getting to know how good you could have become and how much you could have won.

 

[clemente]

Kroos is better because he won more, played more games at the highest level and was decisive in them, make the right calls in his career to improve his chances to get what he wants in football, which is to win. He is a winner, both with Germany, and with Real Madrid, and is now rightly considered by mostly everyone to be one of the finest midfielders of his generation. I'd say he is the best midfielder from the post Iniesta generation.

You don't make the distinction between have the ability to do something, and actually doing something. There are tons of players in every sports who have a much higher ability that what they've achieved in their career. In the end, they're judged on what they've achieved, not on what their ability was.

So, talking about ability, yea, he's world class at this chapter. Talking about the whole package, he is not. And when up against a player like Kroos who absolutely has every single component that defines a great player, he comes up short. As he should until he proves otherwise. Can't do it at PSG? It's a free world, nobody keeps him with force there.

Pretty much sums up how much you know about Kroos, he is defensively inept, way worse than Rakitic, not even comparable to Verratti, his stamina is also shit compared to Rakitic/Verratti. What he has is a good passing/positioning/playmaking/finishing, thats it, I can guarantee Verratti would bench Kroos, he has way more to offer, he is 10 times more of a complete package than Kroos. Kroos won trophies because he was in better teams, he was ALWAYS in teams that unlike PSG are very well balanced and have a top 3 player in every position, Rakitic probably has as many trophies as him, trophies almost always is a dumb argument. Would never consider Kroos over Verratti, I would even keep Rakitic because workhouse trait for that position in our team is necessary.

 

[serghei]

Pretty much sums up how much you know about Kroos, he is defensively inept, way worse than Rakitic, not even comparable to Verratti, his stamina is also shit compared to Rakitic/Verratti. What he has is a good passing/positioning/playmaking/finishing, thats it, I can guarantee Verratti would bench Kroos, he has way more to offer, he is 10 times more of a complete package than Kroos. Kroos won trophies because he was in better teams, he was ALWAYS in teams that unlike PSG are very well balanced and have a top 3 player in every position, Rakitic probably has as many trophies as him, trophies almost always is a dumb argument. Would never consider Kroos over Verratti, I would even keep Rakitic because workhouse trait for that position in our team is necessary.

OK man, Kroos is shit. Verratti is two times better than that overrated bum.

 

[DonAndres]

Playing for RM vs PSG is a choice. And since it is not something that is imposed on you, but actually a deliberate choice, why should it be out of the question, or used as an excuse? Verratti extending his contract with PSG is basically his choices limiting the ways his abilities can be exercised. That was a bad move for him, which is actually limiting him as a player.

Yes, what you say is true. But couldn't I just say that Kroos was also smarter than Verratti with his career choices. That he made a risky move going out of his comfort zone at Bayern and play in a different culture, for Madrid. It could have backfired, could have made real damage to his career. He made a call, and was the winner call. This is credit for Kroos and his judgment. It also goes to show he had ambition, decisiveness, courage, and a bunch of other things that count a lot as well.

Ok? I think a lot of this is irrelevant. Kroos's decision to move from Bayern to RM isn't really self-sacrificial in any way, just moving from one huge juggernaut to another. Backfired? He was guaranteed to start and they had just won La Decima with Ancelotti and were making a number of very smart and forward-thinking transfer moves. No one would ever have said that he's making a hard or potentially wayward choice, or taking a risk for some more satisfying/difficult to achieve glory.

Smart choice, and he definitely doesn't regret it and is probably pretty pleased with what he's won. That doesn't mean that just choosing to play for a wildly successful team makes you a better player. In that case, no player should ever play for any team other than RM/Barca/Bayern or else they can't be world class and it'd be a hit on their individual ability. Why bother even having entire leagues and competitions when every player who is of a world class level should be playing for those teams that can virtually guarantee them success and major trophies? I don't really care that Kroos 'made the choice' for RM as it has little relevance in the debate for who is better. At the end of the day, you simply can't say that Kroos is better at the sport of football than Verratti.

Marco was pretty misguided over the years about PSG. Shouldn't have signed all those extensions, but he genuinely did believe in their project and badly wanted to win the CL with them. It was the wrong choice, but not really one that you can blame him for. Wasn't even for the money, as he isn't getting paid anything special. But to give an honest and fair assessment, it doesn't matter that he got stuck at PSG because he simply is better than Kroos and the circumstances that made him far less successful doesn't change that. We're just talking football here, and Verratti is better at playing football.