Pep Guardiola

[Gaudi]

City looks scared when things don't go perfectly, don't like that and that is the reason I don't see them as favourites for CL.

 

[Alik]

OR, MORE LIKELY, the history is repeating:
1. Pep came to Barca. He shocked the world for 2-3 seasons and then managers and teams have figured out how to defend and counter against his tactics.
And then Barca stopped dominating.
2. Spain did the same. They shocked the world for a few years and then it all stopped, exactly the same as in Barca's case.
3. now Pep came to England. Teams in England are even less familiar with his technical style.
He has totally shocked them and dominated them in the last season, but other managers usually have IQ and are able to learn on their mistakes and evolve.
Lately, teams are defending better and better against City and City is without ideas.
And since Pep is stubborn and unwilling to change anything, current results are not a huge surprise.

Btw, City's gameplan in the last 2 matches was:
1. pass the ball around the box till death, the same as Barca.
The opponents parked 2 buses around their box and City can't break them through the middle.
2. then the only other options are: counters or crosses.
But City is also slow and are forcing too much possession play so they don't have too many counters.
So, the only thing which they can do is: crosses.
And then they start to cross like crazy, and then in the box they have Barca's DNA Cfs in Jesus and Aguero

And then, City gets what they deserve=defeats due to Pep's stubborness.

Btw, what is Pep/City's plan B?
= there is no Plan B.
Pep's plan B was always=repeat a Plan A for 1000 times in row again and again and hope that it will start to work

So, let's sit down and see.
I have told numerous times that Barca's TikiTaka from 2008-2011 is outdated and figured out.
People here replied: NOOO! It is not figured out, we just HAVEN'T EXECUTED it properly

Well, now you guys will have your "father" Pep.
He will execute it properly, right?
Let's see whether the opponents will STILL neutralize him inspite of him executing it properly.

The point of a story: you can't sell the same shit for 10 years in a row.
You need to evolve.

And people here are acting as if Pep's style is some divine style which will never get figured out and neutralized, AS LONG AS you are executing it properly, lol.

I thought you said Pep's football was perfect for winning leagues?

 

[ini4ever]

City looks scared when things don't go perfectly, don't like that and that is the reason I don't see them as favourites for CL.

Yup they lose their shit when they're behind and even Pep can't handle it, the funny thing is whenever they're losing one of their players tend to lose its sanity and get a red card lol.

 

[BBZ8800]

I thought you said Pep's football was perfect for winning leagues?

If you and me were coaches of Barca, Pep's style would be the best pick on paper to win a league title, against Getafe, Levante and similar.
Play a possession football, create 15 shots per match and you'll usually win either through a teamplay or through individual magic (Messi, or City's attackers).

So, compared to RM's, AM's, or even Valverde's style, Pep's style is a better pick to win league titles.

For a CL, Pep's system sucks after 2011 since it has been figured out and it was always weak against thug teams who have both physique, technique and some thuggishness.

So, for La liga, out of 10 seasons, you will win more titles with Pep's style than with RM's or AM's style.
That doesn't mean though that Pep's style will win league in every season.
He lost it even with Barca (Xavi, Iniesta, Busi, Messi, Alves) in 2012, right?

So, his system is the best for league tournaments.
But, as time goes by, he needs to add new things since the opponents will make his system less and less efficient in each new season.
So, I'll pull numbers from my ass now, let's say that he will have 70% chances to win a title in a 1st and 2nd season.
Then, if he won't add anything new, his chance will drop to 50% in the 3rd season, 40% in the 4th etc.

BUT, the same will happen even with RM's style over years.
EACH winning system will become less effective after 2-3 years, because the opponents will learn exactly how to stop you and how to kill you on counters.

That said, if I were Barca's coach, I would SURELY play Pep's style in my 1st season, because that is the best option.
But, I would personally try other options even in the 1st season.
Since you need different (more defensive and more physical options) for a CL quarters and semis, where Pep's soft possession style rarely works, unless you have Messi in his team.

So: Pep's style for La Liga, and more defensive, thuggish, physical approach for CL quarters, semis and a final.
After 2-3 seasons, when teams will figure you out, you need to add a lot of new things in your tactics to spice things up.
The most simple and a no brainer thing for upgrading Pep's system is: buying a striker like Icardi to score headers since they are creating 10s of crosses without any problems.

What you see with a real life Pep: his tactics will get neutralized more and more in upcoming Months and years.
He will either spend new 800B for even better players and continue with the same shit, or he will quit and move to other country, or he will eventually turn the page and evolve.

Pep and Mou are probably two of the most stubborn coaches in the world.
Mou's tactics were also awesome and a winning formula 10-15 years ago.
He hasn't evolved too much and his ideas are not working anymore.
If Pep will continue with his stubborness and zero changes, he may face Mou's fate in 10 years.

 

[Leo_Messi]

Which manager has been more successful than Pep since 2012? Let alone since 2008? Did Pep not win everything in England in just his second season and beating most records in the process while playing some amazing football? Probably the best seen to date in England. All while spending less than Mourinho. Now Klopp is hailed (despite winning jackshit in 3 seasons and failing in 2 European finals as usual), after spending a bigger amount than Pep did in his second season, as the second coming while the same Klopp barely was able to qualify from the group stages in the CL this season. Half of the league remains to be played. His biggest opponent (City) has been very hard hit with injuries. 3 of their most important players have been missing for long stretches of the season while Klopp has not had such injury problems at all.

All this nonsense talk of offensive and ball-controlling football being "outdated", Pep being found etc. is the usual simpleton talk that no sane person can take seriously. We saw how Pep was found out last season when just the season prior the same people were saying that he was finished. If not for being robbed against Liverpool in the CL, he most likely would have reached the CL final and given RM a much tougher battle in the final aside from dominating English domestic football completely last season.

Nobody here (certainly not me) cares about City but the double standards are amazing.

the way some people talk about pep here, you'd think they were supporting mourinho during his madrid days

Not sure if 15 year old kids or just very bad trolling.

When I say physical teams, I mean about teams who are physically stronger than Barca in terms of strength, height and some thugish behavior.
And yet, who are very, very technical also.

For example today, Atletico, Juve, Bayern, Liverpool.

Back then, Chelsea was way more physical than us.
And we couldn't do shit even with prime Busi, Xavi, Iniesta, Messi.
Ref saved us.

In 2010, another physical team with good technique and organization.
Strong defense, two fighters Cambiaso and Motta in the middle, plus technical Sneijder.
In attack, a fullback-attacker Etoo, tall and strong Milito and a runner Pandev.
In which universe is that NOT a physically stronger team?
And they knocked us out again.

My point for years is that Barca is lacking some physique for the CL level.
Even Pep's team with prime Xavi and Iniesta struggled again physical&technical teams.
And today, we are always knocked out by the same type of teams: Atletico, Atletico, Bayern, Juve, Psg, Roma.
We are rarely beaten by technical teams like Man Utd and Arsenal.

So, my problem with Pepistas, regarding Barca's future is that they are overhyping Pep's teams, who have already struggled in all away CL matches and against ALL teams who were both physical and technical.

And then it sounds as if Pep's teams were beating EVERYONE.
While, as said above, even then we didn't have the answer for teams like Inter and Chelsea.
And today, when football raised the bar in terms of physical skills even more, Pepistas want to copy Pep from 2010, who struggled against these teams even with prime Xavi and Iniesta.

And then, open any topic today, and questions like: why is stupid EV not playing with Dembele-Suarez-Messi, Coutinho-Arthur-Busi?
And we can go in circles for 20 000 pages.

One more time, I don't hate Barca's Pep.
I do hate what people have made out of Pep.
How we have deleted all of his team's flaws and created a story of an invincible team and a system, if executed properly, both in 2009 and 2019.
But that is simply not true.
Especially for 2019'.

And every coach of Barca will be compared to Pep and with: how close has he come in executing his exact style and system.
And everything different than Pep's system will be a sackable offense for years to come.

In that sense, Pep's legacy is a huge burden today.
People are stuck in 2009' and they don't want to move.
Since, again, they have lately created a story of an invincible team&system which would work equally as good in 2019'.
Yet, that system didn't work against teams like Inter and Chelsea neither then.
Neither for Barca post Pep in a CL.
Neither for Pep's teams after Barca in a CL.

On the other hand, though, that system is still good enough:
1. Against Getafe and West Ham, for league titles
2. Against big teams like Arsenal and Porto

That system rarely works against physical and direct teams like Real, Atletico, Liverpool in a CL knockout matches.

You did not detect the obvious sarcasm, I see. Indeed, all those teams that we faced back then were physically strong teams yet they were defeated. You can't win the CL every single year 4 years in a row. 2 wins and 4 CL semifinals in a row while TOTALLLY dominating the world's best domestic league is something that has never been matched and likely never will be. That's the obvious point that you refuse to admit.

Everything else that you are arguing for or against, I have never mentioned with a single word.

I feel that I am repeating myself but let me make it short and clear once again.

1) Football has evolved in the past 10 years. So has Pep at Bayern and City. Claiming otherwise is sheer ignorance.

2) I don't care about deluded Pep fanboys, Messi fanboys, Valverde fanboys or any fanboys for that matter. Their arguments are irrelevant to me and this discussion.

3) Pep like any other manager and human is not perfect. There is no such thing in football but that 2008-2012 team was very close to that. Praising this as a supporter is perfectly natural.

4) Every sane fan knew that those 4 years would not last forever. Every football fan above the age of 13 knows that winning cycles (highly succesfull ones) come and go.

5) Nobody here from what I can see, certainly not myself, have claimed or argued that football can only be played in one way or that there is something called a 'perfect tactic' or 'perfect football'.

6) I was just as entertained during the 2014-15 season as I was during Pep's first 3 seasons.

7) Can you please name me a manager that not only plays entertaining and offensive football but likewise creates strong defensive units (as Pep usually does) who are able to master every tactic and opponent at any given moment all the time? There is no such thing.

8) LOGICALLY tactics of managers like Zidane who completely rely on individual talent (what Zidane did with RM, he could never have done with City due to City having vastly inferior players than RM) and pragmatism (Italian school) is always the easiest way to win knockout competitions. You sit back and absorb the pressure, rely on superior individual talent (RM has a better squad than all clubs in the world with the exception of us, probably they had a better squad from 2014 until 2018 so not even that) and mostly play on the counter. That and a insane amount of luck which I already mentioned but you choose to ignore by mentioning the Chelsea-FCB game back in 2009 which was the only such controversial game. Zidane's RM has had at least 3-5 of such games.

If the CL was a fair competition (league format and say 10 teams playing against each other at home and away), RM would never have won those CL's. Not even a single likely, maybe except for the 2016-17 season but that is another discussion altogether. The point is that those 3 CL trophies do not show the real picture. Is anyone here honestly going to claim that RM was the best team in Europe last season? Or back in 2016? On the other hand was anyone in doubt that we were the (by far) beast team back in 2009, 2011 and arguably 2010 as well? 2012 we were no longer the same team (natural) so I will not claim that season although I am sure that we would have defeated that Bayern in the final had we not fucked that CL-semifinal against Chelsea up in an imperial fashion.

9) You spend an awfully lot energy on proving the obvious, that Pep is not perfect, while being remarkably silent when discussing Valverde and pretty much every other manager. You think that Zidane will not be "found out" as he was domestically in Spain (80% of all games during a season, expect for the 2016-17 season where he had the best RM squad at his disposal ever?). He will. What will you argue when that happens (because it will happen)?

10) Just by using trophies and statistics as an argument, there is nobody close to Pep. Not even Mourinho. Zidane's managerial career has lasted 2.5 years. Pep's for 10 years. Pep is the most sought after and arguably the most respected current coach. He can literally choose what team he wants to coach as every club would take him as their manager in a heartbeat. Can Zidane tell the same? Is Zidane even remotely rated similarly to Pep? Hell no.

 

[Joan]

Some things are factually wrong. To start with them:

Which manager has been more successful than Pep since 2012? Let alone since 2008? Did Pep not win everything in England in just his second season and beating most records in the process while playing some amazing football? Probably the best seen to date in England. All while spending less than Mourinho.

Not true. Mourinho spent 466.100.000 € while Pep spent 599.690.000 € (in Manchester). Precisely 133.580.000 € less.

If not for being robbed against Liverpool in the CL, he most likely would have reached the CL final and given RM a much tougher battle in the final aside from dominating English domestic football completely last season.

That's a what if situation. Shouldn't go there. Liverpool beat City 5-1 in 2 legs, 'if not for being wrong' implies it was close. It wasn't. The ref wasn't fair towards City, but it was a deserved win in the end.

Now, regarding him conquering the PL....

Pep's main competitor was Mourinho's ManUtd. Finished 19 points clear. All of a sudden, everyone's thrilled, he's proving the haters wrong. Well done, but I'm not impressed. Being honest here.

Speaking of double standards:
Pep's City wins the league 19 points clear of Mou's United: magician.
Valverde's Barca wins the league 17 points clear of Zidane's Real: lucky, not deserved.
Just a remark. Truth be told, neither team had true competition for the title. Unlike this season.

Lastly... for me, his stint in Manchester has been marked with entertaining football, good transfers and mediocre results (Monaco, Liverpool, PL 1st season). You can't exclude expectations people have for wannabe one of the best coaches not in the world, but in history.

 

[khaled_a_d]

Which manager has been more successful than Pep since 2012?

Zidane 3peat CL titles (first in very long time) along his dominant league performance in 2 consecutive league campaigns (1 Liga title, and the year before he had most points in Liga since he was appointed) easily triumph anything Pep did since 2012.
Lucho 3 years is probably more successful than Pep's time with Bayern/City too
If Pep doesn't win one League/CL this year then his 3 years in City has been entertaining but disappointing to say at least, 3rd after Tottenham and Chelsea in 1st year and bad 3 year while winning 1 league against no competition last season if we apply same logic people using against Ernesto, abysmal CL record (he got the easiest road to QF 3 years in row, probably ever) and once he faces any good team he is out.

 

[Leo_Messi]

Zidane 3peat CL titles (first in very long time) along his dominant league performance in 2 consecutive league campaigns (1 Liga title, and the year before he had most points in Liga since he was appointed) easily triumph anything Pep did since 2012.
Lucho 3 years is probably more successful than Pep's time with Bayern/City too
If Pep doesn't win one League/CL this year then his 3 years in City has been entertaining but disappointing to say at least, 3rd after Tottenham and Chelsea in 1st year and bad 3 year while winning 1 league against no competition last season if we apply same logic people using against Ernesto, abysmal CL record (he got the easiest road to QF 3 years in row, probably ever) and once he faces any good team he is out.

I meant 2008. In such a case the answer is nobody.

A for Zidane, aside from the 2016-17 season (where he had the best squad in RM's history at his disposal) he has shown nothing other than 2 of the most lucky and absurd CL wins in history. He has not shaped football in any way or form tactically. He is not an innovator. He is not spoken as someone that is in the same league that Pep is in or until recently Mourinho. Zidane will be found out as soon as he gets hired by an elite club not named Juventus.

Zidane embodies everything that I hate about the CL and modern football. Pragmatic and low-risk football and a superior team having no problem sitting back and playing result-orientated football as Zidane's RM mastered to perfection despite them having complete off-days as well (Schalke back in 2016, Juve last season etc.). Pep's philosophy is much more difficult to succeed with and much more daring. It's a question of taste. Some people (most) nowadays are blinded by results alone and glorify the CL while it is not the pinnacle that it is claimed as. Not to mention that its nature (due to being a knockout competition over 2 legs only and every team not meeting every team) is inherently unfair and not accurate to measure who truly is the best team in Europe.

Also your version of history is absurd. Pep reached the CL-semifinal 3 times in a row with Bayern and only an absurd lack of luck (no need to mention the semifinal against Atlético in 2016) prevented him from reaching a CL final and likely winning it against a not very impressive RM back in 2016. The CL is a knockout competition where speculation, luck, favorable referring decisions etc. are of great importance. It says nothing about who the best team in Europe is. If it was changed to a league format (which it should be, a future Super League will likely ensure this) where everyone would meet everyone twice (home and away), Pep would have won more CL's. In any case 2 CL's and numerous Cl-seminal appearances in 9 seasons is a great record that only Zidane's lucky run is even close to (Ancelotti has been a coach for 2.5 times as long as Pep has so I am not including him on the list) while Pep's domestic record has been untouchable in the past 15 years.

 

[Leo_Messi]

The link doesn't show for some reason. Possibly a goal com link? Think they're banned on this platform.

There's no point in comparing him to a man who flopped in his job. And was sacked for it. Pep spent more.

I watched both legs. It wasn't fair, but it was far from 'if not for the robbery'. Anyways, I'm not going into what if situations.

Speaking of Klopp, his modus operandi is different from Pep's. First he managed Borussia, an underdog in the league dominated by Bayern. Now he manages Liverpool. No need to disrespect his work. Pep being the much more achieved manager.

So? Who cares?


Not putting words into your mouth. Who were you referring to by mentioning double standards? People who post around. So did I in the post above (vide supra).

Furthermore, I didn't rule Pep out. For the matter of fact. Nor am I some Pep hater, as you seem to think.

All I think is that his work in Englend is still lacking. For now, I don't rate it as a particularly succesful stint (the resources, expectations included).

I made a quick Google search about Pep's and Mourinho's net spend. The Sun was the source.

I found another link from November 2018.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/how-much-jose-mourinho-spent-13578031

The point is that Pep likes to spend money that is being made available to him as Mourinho and every other top coach likes. Klopp's Liverpool has not exactly been shy lately either.

https://www.thisisanfield.com/2018/...g-big-and-pressure-to-win-the-premier-league/

If this is about results compared to net spend one could make a case of Pochettino being the best coach as he has barely spent a dime.

Pep proved his worth from the very beginning when he was coaching kids in the Spanish fourth division. This gave him the opportunity to coach his boyhood club and the rest is history. Pep has been able to choose between elite clubs not because this opportunity fell down from the sky to him but because of his merits. Those two go hand-in-hand.

I am not direspecting Klopp but facts are facts. He has nothing on Pep.

Being able to go all-in on the CL, rotate in the domestic league (unlike those fighting for the league title) is usually an advantage. That's the point. I don't care either as I am not a City fan. In fact I don't support a single club in England unlike most users (appears to be the case) here on this forum.

When I talked about double standards I was referring to BBZ.

What I am arguing against are the absurd comments about Pep here form certain users. Never said that you were but I wrote that you very well could have ruled him out after the first season.

Well, I am certainly not preventing you from having such views. BTW, I have never commented on his overall stint in England as it is too soon. All I have said is that he has already proven his worth by winning the most dominant league title in history and breaking several records in the process. He also has won the League Cup and the Community Shield Cup. He only lacks the FA Cup to have won everything in England.

BTW Pep has changed Mancini's City completely. Only Silva, notoriously injury-prone Kompany and the team's most dominant attacking player Agüero (says it all about their squad even to this day - not close to what Pep had at his disposal at Barça or Zidane at RM remains of the old guard. Rest are mostly youngsters.

The City squad is not really that impressive in reality. Fernandinho is bang average. David Silva is not getting any younger (soon to be 33), Agüero remains their most lethal attacker 7 years after he arrived (!), Gabriel Jesus is nothing special, Sane while a very promising talent is very inconsistent, Kevin De Bruyne is world class (Pep has changed this player for the better a great deal), Sterling is an above average player but not more than that etc. Their best defenders are 24 year old Laporte and Stones who until last season had nothing to show for in terms of honors other than their talent.

It's not like Pep is managing players whose talent is comparable to what he did at Barça or what Zidane did at RM. Not even close. So this fairytale story of it being handed to Pep on a silver plate while poor Mourinho, Klopp, Conte etc. were managing scrubs (not saying that it it something that you have said but I have heard such theories online often) is a joke claim.

Anyway enough talk about Pep. He is no longer our manager and history is history. However some of the stuff that you read in this thread is nevertheless absurd.

 

[khaled_a_d]

I meant 2008. In such a case the answer is nobody.

A for Zidane, aside from the 2016-17 season (where he had the best squad in RM's history at his disposal) he has shown nothing other than 2 of the most lucky and absurd CL wins in history. He has not shaped football in any way or form tactically. He is not an innovator. He is not spoken as someone that is in the same league that Pep is in or until recently Mourinho. Zidane will be found out as soon as he gets hired by an elite club not named Juventus.

Zidane embodies everything that I hate about the CL and modern football. Pragmatic and low-risk football and a superior team having no problem sitting back and playing result-orientated football as Zidane's RM mastered to perfection despite them having completed off-days as well (Schalke back in 2016, Juve last season etc.). Pep's philosophy is much more difficult to succeed with and much more daring. It's a question of taste. Some people (most) nowadays are blinded by results alone and glorify the CL while it is not the pinnacle that it is claimed as. Not to mention that its nature (due to being a knockout competition over 2 legs only and every team not meeting every team) is inherently unfair and not accurate to measure who truly is the best team in Europe.

Also your version of history is absurd. Pep reached the CL-semifinal 3 times in a row with Bayern and only an absurd lack of luck (no need to mention the semifinal against Atlético in 2016) prevented him from reaching a CL final and likely winning it against a not very impressive RM back in 2016. The CL is a knockout competition where speculation, luck, favorable referring decisions etc. are of great importance. It says nothing about who the best team in Europe is. If it was changed to a league format (which it should be, a future Super League will likely ensure this) where everyone would meet everyone twice (home and away), Pep would have won more CL's. In any case 2 CL's and numerous Cl-seminal appearances in 9 seasons is a great record that only Zidane's lucky run is even close to (Ancelotti has been a coach for 2.5 times as long as Pep has so I am not including him on the list) while Pep's domestic record has been untouchable in the past 15 years.

Hmmm, you like what you like, I get that and respect it and won't try to change it.
You are also convinced with somethings that I can't change, again respect that.
But you don't represent any objective argument, luck luck luck luck, Zidane who 3peat and had 2 great Liga years is fraud, Pep is unlucky. etc.
You asked specific clear question "Which manager has been more successful than Pep since 2012? "
You didn't say the best for you, you didn't say the best for Barca fans. You didn't even say better which can be more subjective. So the answer should normally be objective and neutral.
And the answer is simply Zidane and I am not sure there is truly any argument against it. Him proving himself bad afterwards is future hypothesis unrelated to your question, Pep being able to win super league is an imaginary hypothesis too

Pep let Bayern badly in CL, he was out coached by some margin by all of Lucho/Ancelotti/Simone. All 3 times he was considered favorite to win it and all 3 coaches out coached him, that is what neutrals see, that is what Bayern fans see, you have another opinion? sure but don't call other's version of absurd when you are giving the guy excuses and presenting very biased opinion.
He has 3 lame Bundesliga title and 1 EPL title to show only in his post Barca career, barely great accomplishment or great success.
Pep being innovator is good thing, but plenty of all time great coaches has been fundamentalists, SAF wasn't really innovator either and he is an all time great coach, and Pep was innovator in Barca, he didn't update himself. Right now he is no more of innovator.

 

[Leo_Messi]

Hmmm, you like what you like, I get that and respect it and won't try to change it.
You are also convinced with somethings that I can't change, again respect that.
But you don't represent any objective argument, luck luck luck luck, Zidane who 3peat and had 2 great Liga years is fraud, Pep is unlucky. etc.
You asked specific clear question "Which manager has been more successful than Pep since 2012? "
You didn't say the best for you, you didn't say the best for Barca fans. You didn't even say better which can be more subjective. So the answer should normally be objective and neutral.
And the answer is simply Zidane and I am not sure there is truly any argument against it. Him proving himself bad afterwards is future hypothesis unrelated to your question, Pep being able to win super league is an imaginary hypothesis too

Pep let Bayern badly in CL, he was out coached by some margin by all of Lucho/Ancelotti/Simone. All 3 times he was considered favorite to win it and all 3 coaches out coached him, that is what neutrals see, that is what Bayern fans see, you have another opinion? sure but don't call other's version of absurd when you are giving the guy excuses and presenting very biased opinion.
He has 3 lame Bundesliga title and 1 EPL title to show only in his post Barca career, barely great accomplishment or great success.
Pep being innovator is good thing, but plenty of all time great coaches has been fundamentalists, SAF wasn't really innovator either and he is an all time great coach, and Pep was innovator in Barca, he didn't update himself. Right now he is no more of innovator.

How can any person (objectively speaking) deny the absurd luck that Zidane has enjoyed as a coach at RM? In particular in last season's CL but likewise in his first half season.

Can you honestly tell me or anyone else that Zidane is rated equally highly as Pep? Or that he has had a better career? Or that he has proven himself in 3 leagues in less than 10 years time? That Zidane is tactically stronger than Pep? That he is an innovator?

Zidane's run in the league in early 2016 was great, no doubt about that, but don't forget that we almost gifted him a league title when we had already won it (de facto) several months prior. Shall I mention his run in the CL during those few months? He almost went out against Schalke at home. Barely defeated the worst City in recent memory where he needed an own goal to advance. Barely defeated freaking Wolfsburg. Needed and off-side goal in the final against Atlético and a Griezmann penalty miss and a penalty win, to be proclaimed as the best team in Europe in that season while Pep's Bayern were clearly the best team in Europe that season. The same Bayern team that completely outplayed Atlético in that Cl-seminal but Pep was as unlucky as we were against Chelsea in 2012. Even more so in fact. Basically Zidane's CL run in 2016 was one of the luckiest and easiest (in terms of routes to a CL-final) ever in the modern era. That should be undeniable.

Now, as I wrote, RM was clearly the best team in Europe in 2016-17 and for once RM also won the league title along with the CL and not like in 1998, 2000, 2016 and this year where they won the CL while being pathetically bad in the domestic league. Something that we would never be able to. However no sane person considers those RM teams as the best in Europe in those year unless they are solely focused on results in a freaking cup knockout tournament that is inherently unjust as argued before.

I meant since 2008 (since Pep began his career at the highest level) and the answer to that, trophy wise, statistically wise (win ratio etc.) and playing style wise (objectively speaking his type of football is much more demanding and much more difficult to play than Zidane's pragmatic style) is that Pep is the best unless there is a manager out there that I have never heard about.

Out-classed by Simeone? Is this a joke? Go rewatch the highlights from that CL-seminal in 2016. I guess Di Matteo "out-classed" Pep back in 2012 as well. Note, that Bayern was even more unlucky than us back in 2012.

Bayern was not the favorite in 2015. The bookies agreed with that.

He won everything there is to win multiple times in Germany domestically and reached 3 CL-semifinals in a row. With some more luck he could have reached at leat 1 CL final. How is that average? Same in City. He won a historic league in his second season and every title except for the FA Cup 2.5 seasons into his career. City is nowhere near the quality of Zidane's RM. Zidane had twice the team at his disposal. How many City players would have played for Real in the CL-final against Juve back in 2017? 1 or 2 at the very most if that can even do it.

Let us agree to disagree and end it here. I don't really bother discussing Pep any longer, believe it or not. Nor am I a fanboy but I obviously consider him as the best coach of the past 10 years and as a club legend and I respect him greatly.

 

[Messigician]

People go on about Pep's achievements but hang on hang on. No doubt he did well but he is no miracle worker.

Pep has always come into the best teams in the world.

Rijkaard a very underrated coach won champions league with the same core, Jupp won the treble the year before that destroying us, And Pellegrini won the title and reached the Ucl semi final in his final season despite the players having stopped playing for him.

Pep has never had a real challenge in his career. Say what you want about Mou Mou but what he did at Porto cannot be questioned.

Yeah city broke records but the league was the poorest it had ever been yet they still could only win the title.

Since leaving Barca Pep has underacheived make no mistake about it and his employers are very aware he was brought in to win UCL not the ttile as all his predecessors did while spending less money.

Also his wage demands are insane for most clubs. Possibility we could not afford it if he were to come back. He seems the type of guy that would rather manage PSG than start a project at a smaller club that wants to return to the top like AC Milan

 

[D10S_JC]

His system isn't work with a less superior team. Fans always demand him to play with a more pragmatic approach in some games, but he won't. And that is Pep.

 

[FCB1987]

If City don't win the league or CL this season (which is more likelt than not), his time there would be no more successful than Mancini or Pellegrini's after three full seasons.

 

[Joan]

Hmmm, you like what you like, I get that and respect it and won't try to change it.
You are also convinced with somethings that I can't change, again respect that.
But you don't represent any objective argument, luck luck luck luck, Zidane who 3peat and had 2 great Liga years is fraud, Pep is unlucky. etc.
You asked specific clear question "Which manager has been more successful than Pep since 2012? "
You didn't say the best for you, you didn't say the best for Barca fans. You didn't even say better which can be more subjective. So the answer should normally be objective and neutral.
And the answer is simply Zidane and I am not sure there is truly any argument against it. Him proving himself bad afterwards is future hypothesis unrelated to your question, Pep being able to win super league is an imaginary hypothesis too

Pep let Bayern badly in CL, he was out coached by some margin by all of Lucho/Ancelotti/Simone. All 3 times he was considered favorite to win it and all 3 coaches out coached him, that is what neutrals see, that is what Bayern fans see, you have another opinion? sure but don't call other's version of absurd when you are giving the guy excuses and presenting very biased opinion.
He has 3 lame Bundesliga title and 1 EPL title to show only in his post Barca career, barely great accomplishment or great success.
Pep being innovator is good thing, but plenty of all time great coaches has been fundamentalists, SAF wasn't really innovator either and he is an all time great coach, and Pep was innovator in Barca, he didn't update himself. Right now he is no more of innovator.

Good post.