Neymar Jr. - v5

[putogusiluz8]

The first part is definitely true, he breezes past defenders incredibly easy, but what frustrates people is that seldom anything good comes out of it... Yeah, a few times the team manages to score after one of his moves, but those are the exceptions, not the rule...

Either way season is over and Lucho is gone, so if the new coach manages to sort out midfield then I would assume Neymar could improve next season in terms of end product...

From my point of view the frustration i feel is not that all those beautiful runs end in nothing and that equates to him playing bad, nor do i think there's anyone better for us in that left flank, i still think he is a plus to the team, but the fact that he could be 10× better! That frustrates me. Imagine if he was more... whats the word efficient... lord almighty. He just makes it look so easy and its sad that most of those chances we don't capitlize on because he poops it all up at the end by taking an unecessary extra touch or bad cross or taking to long to cross or whatever. Imagine how unstoppable we would be if he became a more efficient player.

 

[JerseyAddict]

From my point of view the frustration i feel is not that all those beautiful runs end in nothing and that equates to him playing bad, nor do i think there's anyone better for us in that left flank, i still think he is a plus to the team, but the fact that he could be 10× better! That frustrates me. Imagine if he was more... whats the word efficient... lord almighty. He just makes it look so easy and its sad that most of those chances we don't capitlize on because he poops it all up at the end by taking an unecessary extra touch or bad cross or taking to long to cross or whatever. Imagine how unstoppable we would be if he became a more efficient player.

+1
He seems to mostly have that "extra" touch or "no idea" how to be clinical.
Just improve that for f sake and be what we all want.

 

[Potroh]

Imagine how unstoppable we would be if he became a more efficient player.

I agree but one should also look at how he plays for Brazil. Look at those games and will see that in the passed season apart from the goals scored by Neymar, he was somehow involved in almost all of them.
From the technical point of view when he plays for his NT, they much less frequently play against a set defense of 8-9 players, there is more space for him and he can play much more effectively.
Also Barca scored quite a few times from fast counter-attacks, when he usually does his job very well, and both other members of the MSN scored considerably out of those passes.

True, he often tries just one more unnecessary dribble, tries to get passed 4-5 defenders, but mind it that essentially Messi does the same, with a better finishing rate, but concerning the dribbles, Neymar's statistics are better actually, even if nothing comes out of those.

But here we come to one of the main problems of the present Barca tactics, namely that BRINGING OUT the BALL after a goal-kick is Barca's slowest, most painful and most circuitous part of the game.
We are slow in those situations and predictable that almost always results playing against a set wall of defenders, when either Messi of Neymar tries to get through them. This is a tactical mistake, which also consists the statistical fact that MATS is not too effective with long passes, midfielders are not good with headers, so they try to bring out the ball by plenty of flat passes, which takes energy, time, precision, etc.
By now the opponents do know this Barca-specific weakness and they except our valuable game-time and energies being wasted on this pseudo-tiki-taka, that's actually much more frustrating compared to what the attackers do.

There are two "schools" in this game and among coaches, one says: "possession is life", whereas the other says: "kick that bloody ball to the to the other half, regardless if we can handle it, because while that ball is there, we cannot be in trouble. The old Barca tradition goes for possession, which worked when Xavi used to be there, when Alves played for us, but with Gomes, Denis, Arda or Rakitic it doesn't and cannot work as used to be.
If the new coach is able to see this MAJOR handicap, and tries something else, we are on track... and so is Neymar, who "only" needs to dribble 3 opponents, instead of 5...

 

[Barcaman]

True, he often tries just one more unnecessary dribble, tries to get passed 4-5 defenders, but mind it that essentially Messi does the same, with a better finishing rate, but concerning the dribbles, Neymar's statistics are better actually, even if nothing comes out of those.

So much facepalm. Gumbau and Messi both play football. Only Messi plays at better level.
But yeah, Ney has better dribble stats. Jesus.

If the new coach is able to see this MAJOR handicap, and tries something else, we are on track... and so is Neymar, who "only" needs to dribble 3 opponents, instead of 5...

Yeah, he "only" needs to mature in his head and make better decisions. When to try dribbles and when to release the ball faster. Problem is his mentality, it's that simple.

 

[BBZ8800]

I agree but one should also look at how he plays for Brazil. Look at those games and will see that in the passed season apart from the goals scored by Neymar, he was somehow involved in almost all of them.
From the technical point of view when he plays for his NT, they much less frequently play against a set defense of 8-9 players, there is more space for him and he can play much more effectively.
Also Barca scored quite a few times from fast counter-attacks, when he usually does his job very well, and both other members of the MSN scored considerably out of those passes.

About Neymar being more successfull in NT team, just one thing to consider:

1. WHAT IF NT teams in general play weaker and less compact defenses than European clubs just because NT teams and their players play and train together only for 10-20 days in each year? So, defenders of Bilbao, Espanyol, Sevilla and similar play and train together for 300-ish days per year.
While NT defensive lines from Venezuela or Ecuador play and train together for 20-30 days per year.
That means that defenses from clubs will be more organized and tougher to beat.
Now, since Neymar is individualistic player both at Barca and NT team, he usually goes 1 vs 1 past 2-3 defenders and then he shoots or makes an assist.
In that scenario, when Ney takes the ball deep, and tries to dribble past 2-3 defenders, do you think that he will have more success against Ecuador or against Sevilla, for example?
Not to mention Atletico, Juventus and similar strong defensive lines whom Neymar can't beat that easily in his 1 vs 1 runs.

2. also, NT teams in South America in general seem to have less defensive organisation that random European NT teams.
South American teams (especially weaker ones) are often all over the pace in tactical terms.
In those surroundings, a 1 vs 1 wizzard like Neymar can shine way more easily against South American NT teams than against a midtable or toptable La liga team.

People often mention in Ney's defense how he plays awesome and in a different way for Brasil.
No offense to anyone, but South American football is way different than football in Europe and way different than matches against Psg away, Juve away, Atletico away, against teams with extremely well organized defenses against which is way harder to create 1 vs 1 solo actions and be successful.

How many unsuccessfull solo actions Neymar had against Juventus?
Or why we lose each season in a CL against Atletico/Juve, teams with organized defenses where 1 vs 1 solo actions don't help too much?
In our last 3 CL exits (AM 2014, AM 2016, Juve 2017) we scored 1 goal in 6 matches when we played 11 vs 11.
That is 5 full matches out of 6, where our individual-based MSN play (and Lucho's tactics) looked abolutely toothless against good defenses.

Also, I will never understand that part when people say that Neymar plays differently for Brasil and that he hogs the ball at Barca because we have a weak midfield.
Neymar plays EXACTLY the same for Brasil:

Just count a number of actions where he hogs the ball and makes 1-2-3 too many moves and ruins the action.
On the other hand, on RARE occasions where he passes the ball quickly to his teammates, those actions usually end in a clear chance for a goal.

More or less, when he plays like a classic Barca's Neymar (hogging the ball for too long), usually we see nice dribbles and nothing happens in the end, or something happens very rarely.
On the other hand, when he DOESN'T play like himself and when he plays faster (like 2015's Neymar), those actions are way more efficient and often a goal or an assist come after those actions.

It is a no wonder that majority of people want him to play faster and simpler because that usually means=less unneeded dribbles and way more efficient play for his team.

 

[JamDav1982]

He is magnificent for Brazil and could well lead them to a WC at this rate.

Been brilliant for Barca in his time here and second best player after Messi this season.

Hopefully all continues for a long time yet.

 

[Potroh]

So much facepalm. Gumbau and Messi both play football. Only Messi plays at better level.
But yeah, Ney has better dribble stats. Jesus.

I understand you had to say something negative towards my sentences, the problem is that either you didn't read or understood what I mentioned.
If you think that bringing out the ball is NOT Barca's main handicap, just say so...

 

[Potroh]

No offense to anyone, but South American football is way different than football in Europe and way different than matches against Psg away, Juve away, Atletico away, against teams with extremely well organized defenses against which is way harder to create 1 vs 1 solo actions and be successful.

Yes, you have hit the nail with your hammer. Besides going into the South American differences of style and tactics, you are right and the typical teams we can hardly play against is the Atletico, Juventus types.
Why? Because they are very good defenders, they often defend with 8-9 players, and the MSN "magic" is rarely effective against a brick-wall.

Until Barca finds a MODERN and effective way to bring out the ball (without giving 2 minutes each and every time to these type of opponents to stand up in defensive formation) the problem will exist, because even the best individual attackers need some space and can rarely be effective against 4-5 defenders all the time...

 

[JamDav1982]

Neymar was Barcelonas best outfield player the last time Barca played PSG away and Atletico away anyway.

 

[BBZ8800]

Neymar was Barcelonas best outfield player the last time Barca played PSG away and Atletico away anyway.

I have wrote about that before: when Neymar gets the ball, Barcelona's teamplay or team-action is more or less dead.
He will either dribble past 5 players and score (very rarely), or he will dribble past 4 players and lose the ball while trying to dribble the 5th guy.

His actions in that match:

Action 1: fouled while dribbling through 2 opponents. Other teammates didn't receive the ball after Neymar got the ball
Action 2: trying to dribble past 3 players. Dispossessed.
Action 3: a bad pass after a successful dribble.
Action 4: a good pass
Action 5: a backpass
Action 6: fouled
Action 7: awesome assist for Gomes
Action 8: a lost ball after 1 successful dribble
Action 9: a lost ball
Action 10: a good pass to Messi
Action 11: a lost ball
Action 12: dribbling past 3, dispossessed
Action 13: a bad cross, lost ball
Action 14: a simple pass
Action 15: dispossessed while dribbling
Action 16: dribbling past 3, passing to Messi
Action 17: fouled
Action 18: hogging the ball, dribbling past 2 players, and making a bad pass. Ball lost
Action 19: a cross for Messi, inaccurate. Ball lost
Action 20: backwards dribbling, dispossessed, ball lost
Action 21: dribbling past 2, ball goes out for a throw in for Barca
Action 22: Neymar gets the ball inside a box, he tries a shot. A shot goes wide.
Action 23: a crossing attempt. A bad pass
Action 24: passes a ball to a teammate
Action 25: the same action continued from an action 24, he gets the ball back, he is dispossessed again
Action 26: Neymar gets the ball. He gets fouled.
(a free kick. A shot goes wide)
Action 27: dribbles past 2 opponents. A ball goes out for a corner.
Action 28: a bad pass inside a box.

Now, let's check some numbers from this match.
When you watch a match or a youtube video, it MAY SEEM as if so much is going around Neymar, to some extent.
But when you put all those actions and attempts on paper, this is what you get on the other hand:

1. touched the ball 27 times
2. lost the ball or being dispossessed: 14 times
3. making a good pass or a simple backward pass to a teammate: 6 times out of 27 times he got the ball
4. being fouled: 5 times
5. shots on goal: 1 (wide)
6. earned corners/throw ins: 1 corner, 1 throw in, 5 fouls

So, people will say: but he TRIES so many things. He GETS things going etc.
A key thing which I hate about him and why I think that he is a bad fit our style and system is:
= he touched the ball 27 times in an open play.
Out of 27 times when he got the ball, the action was "DEAD" for Barcelona in 21 action.
That means, that in 21 actions out of 27, when Neymar received a ball, NO OTHER Barca's player received a ball after him.
The action ended either in Neymar dribbling past 3 players and getting dispossessed eventually or making a bad pass/cross after making 1-2-3 dribbles before that.

On the other hand, he probably had 20-ish or 25 successful dribbles in this match (or getting easily past an opponent). And people may easily reply: did you see that? Did you see what he has done multiple times?
But again, out of 20-ish dribbles or running past defenders, he managed to pass a ball (in the end) to a teammate ONLY 6 times in 90 minutes.

So, 20 dribbles:
1. for 1 shot on goal
2. for zero goals
3. for 6 passes to teammates
= a lot of running, dribbling, making tricks for spectators=and absolutely zero end product for his teammates and for Barca

The same as how our opponents during Pep's Tiki-Taka days DIDN'T play parked buses ONLY because they wanted to do so, but because our slow build up possession style FORCED the opponents to park the bus, since there is nothing else you can do while Barca passes the ball left to right for 100 times.
Imo, with Neymar it is the same: we are NOT playing chaotic ONLY because of Lucho and ONLY because we have a poor midfield. But Neymar is one big reason for our current chaotic play.

Neymar vs Juventus home:

Action 1: dispossessed
2: cross
3: pass
4: a bad pass
5: fouled
6: pass
7: pass
8: shot, wide
9: a few passes
10: dispossessed
11: dribbles, then corner
12: hogging the ball, fouled
13: dribbling through 800 players, a bad pass in the end
14: hogging the ball and waiting for a foul. Gets fouled
15: a bad cross
16: a bad pass
17: a good cross
18: dribbling through 800 players again, dispossessed
19: dribbling, shooting wide
20: hogging the ball, dispossessed
21: a pass to Messi
22: dribbling past 3-4 players, some sort of a pass, let's say
23: dribbling, a good pass
24: shooting wide
25: an inaccurate cross, a corner
26: a bad pass
27: good cross
28: bad cross, lost ball
29: dribbling past 4 players, then a bad pass
30: fouled
31: a good pass

1. touched the ball: 31 times
2. lost balls/dispossessed: 10 times
3. good passes: 11
4. a teammate touching a ball AFTER Neymar recieved the ball: 11 times out of 31 actions
5. action being DEAD once Neymar recieves the ball: 20 out of 31

In these 2 matches, an action ended in this or that way once Neymar received the ball: 41 times out of total 58 actions.
That is around 70% of actions.
In 70% of actions when Neymar received the ball, NO OTHER Barca's player touched the ball after that moment.

Of course, he is not such an action killer in all matches (killing 70% of actions), but even in his "good" matches, the amount of actions which he kills (teammates not getting the ball once he gets it) is usually always around 50%.

So, once again, imo, a huge reason why we play chaotic in not only because of Lucho and poor midfield, but because of Neymar and his style of play.
A Million dollar question: how to play a possession football or keep the ball in our feet for longer than 30 seconds while Neymar is on his field?

Also, I would dare to say that his chaotic style and losing too many balls is affecting our midfielders who have to run up and down way too many times (and Messi too). And then majority of them are tired and poor in attacking actions later in the match.

 

[CatalinR10]

id rather see Neymar take actions by himself and lose the ball while getting it closer to the goal as possible than seeing the team pass the ball outside the box from one to another for minutes and minutes without penetrating the box .


He is not a player looking for safe passes , he is the type who will get the ball and try to make something out of it . Being at Barca and facing a buss every game he will lose the ball a lot but i don't really care. He is the type who will create something out of nothing , which is what Barca needs in the offensive line.

 

[Potroh]

I have wrote about that before: when Neymar gets the ball, Barcelona's teamplay or team-action is more or less dead.

Yes you have written about that earlier and everyone already knows how you've been trying to blame Neymar for the problems of the team.
Nice try but the actual facts are different, and cannot be changed by thoroughly analyzing 1-2 games, those games when the entire team played awfully.

In the 2015/16 season when Messi was injured for two months, Neymar (and also Suarez) played brilliantly and also very effectively, and you couldn't feel the "chaos", even in Messi's absence. You could simply notice one thing: namely that either Munir or Sandro played 3 classes below the other two...
Mind it:
- the team scored 116 goals in the Liga alone, more than anyone else. MSN scored 76.
- if Neymar had a better form and better luck with finishing, we could have easily scored 20 more.
So is the problem with the attacking trio? Come on... Nobody close to football would agree with you, unless they have a personal dislike for Neymar, just as you do.

But I can easily tell you where your problem with Neymar stands:
You simply exchange (mix up) the cause and the result, hence your arguments lack causality.
You first offer a solution to the problems which are definitely elsewhere and THEN - by already knowing that Pedro or anyone else would be better in that position - you try to aggregate an array of the cause, which (also besides true points) mirrors your personal taste and dislike for a player that 98% of accomplished experts and fans adore.

Your strange logic is ancient: we should always score a few more goals compared to the conceded quantity, but with an often soft and vulnerable defense and midfield, mediocre new signings, Dani Alves's absence, a very good but at important moments strangely "frozen" goalkeeper, etc. - the present and actual problems are not with the MSN, which can easily be deducted by the number of goals they score.
It's a different question why the attack have been less effective in some very important games, but that's a different matter altogether...

 

[JamDav1982]

None of that proves anything but your opinion BBZ.

He was Barcas best outfield player vs PSG away by far and only one that created anything the whole game. Was also best outfield player vs Atletico.

Both by concensus opinion on here.

Team play dies so much when Neymar gets ball... No he has created more chances this season and been the best team player in some of biggest games.

Has had some frustrating games as well but overall been Barca second best player.

 

[Visca_Barca]

Neymar is the second best player in the world. He can play in the 433 or 4231 and no one can beat defenders like he can. Shame on all of you so called "fans"!

 

[Kuchi]

Used to be a clinical finisher and a much efficient dribbler and passer. Now, with all the extra bullshit dribbles he does, reminds me of Alexis.

His finishing was off, yes but dribbles and work rate, obviously better, as for passing, i really can't tell.

Are you trolling with this? Neymar was the 2nd man, with a big margin between him and the rest this season, even with his bad finishing.