Luis Enrique

[FCBarca]

There will always be ups and downs for a coach, but statistically and trophy-wise, Lucho is the most successful Barca manager of all times. Full stop. It remains to be seen how his tenure will conclude.

Know facts, full stop

Pep won more trophies with Barcelona than Lucho has but Enrique is still only in his third season as coach. Statistics are never going to tell you the whole story since the basis of today's success was cultivated under Guardiola in the first place

Playing identity, ability to entertain while dominating matches & trophies - still considerably in Pep's favor

 

[Bardh]

Know facts, full stop

Pep won more trophies with Barcelona than Lucho has but Enrique is still only in his third season as coach. Statistics are never going to tell you the whole story since the basis of today's success was cultivated under Guardiola in the first place

Playing identity, ability to entertain while dominating matches & trophies - still considerably in Pep's favor

You can't compare in absolute numbers because Lucho completed two seasons whereas Pep completed four. So you have to use trophies-per-season and Lucho's record is better than Pep's (8 trophies / 2 years = 4 per year vs. 14 / 4 = 3.5 per year). It's a slippery slope to say you can't rely on statistics because then the same applies to Pep and what he inherited from his predecessor. By this logic then no one is worthy of their statistics because someone else always had an impact.

Also Lucho's Barca has been more attacking -- scored more goals -- and defended better. It's true that Pep was a visionary and brought out a new style, but trophy-wise and statistically Lucho is better so far.

P.S. This is additional evidence: http://www.sport-english.com/en/news/barca/luis-enrique-one-win-away-from-100-barca-coach-5339223

 

[Alik]

Lucho has got credit. As much as some people try to discredit his achievements with the club.

Thought we should have learnt by now not to judge at this stage of a season.

 

[BBZ8800]

You can't compare in absolute numbers because Lucho completed two seasons whereas Pep completed four. So you have to use trophies-per-season and Lucho's record is better than Pep's (8 trophies / 2 years = 4 per year vs. 14 / 4 = 3.5 per year). It's a slippery slope to say you can't rely on statistics because then the same applies to Pep and what he inherited from his predecessor. By this logic then no one is worthy of their statistics because someone else always had an impact.

Also Lucho's Barca has been more attacking -- scored more goals -- and defended better. It's true that Pep was a visionary and brought out a new style, but trophy-wise and statistically Lucho is better so far.

P.S. This is additional evidence: http://www.sport-english.com/en/news/barca/luis-enrique-one-win-away-from-100-barca-coach-5339223

Since we learned in Messi/CR7's debate that football is not only about stats and numbers, maybe we should stick to that.
Anyway, imo, if you want to compare trophies, we should compare mostly trophies that actually means something in modern football, like Champions league as a No1, and La Liga as a No2.

Nobody cares anymore about CDR trophies and about stats in CDR.
Plus, it is hard to say too much about stats and trophies in cups which were invented in the last 10-20 years to create more competitions, more matches for people to watch during a season and to earn more money from sponsors and Tv rights, like Spanish supercup, European supercup, World club championship etc.

More or less, 10 European supercups + 10 Spanish supercups are worth less than 1 Champions league or 1-2 La Ligas.

So, Pep has 3 La Ligas and 2 Cls in 4 years here.
Lucho has 2 La Ligas and 1 Cl.

Let's see whether Lucho will stay a coach for more than 3 or 4 years in total and what will happen with our La liga and Cl trophies during his reign, since as someone else already mentioned in this thread, we are really in a huge decline as a whole team (and majority of players on an individual level) since February of 2016 and it lasts for 8-9 Months already.

Till then, we had that awesome form from spring of 2015 when we won a treble, and we continued to plays like Gods in autumn on 2015 even without Messi.
Since February of 2016, we lost 10 point advantage over Real in La liga and almost lost a title.
In a CL, we were toothless against Atletico Madrid.

In autumn 2016 for now, we are trashing Celtic, Betis, Leganes and similar teams.
But way too many times against any semidecent opponent, we struggle both on a field and in results (Alaves, AM, Gladbach, Celta) and we barely entered into an October.

Ok, we didn't have Messi, but if our team is this poor without Messi, then we need to raise a lot of questions both about a quality of other players and about Lucho as a coach.

Ok, I rambled too much now.
Anyway, about Lucho, we will estimate his greatness and a number of trophies when he will finish his cycle here.
Imo, that part about relative number of trophies (4 per season) and counting not too relevant, newly invented trophies doesn't make too much sense.

 

[Icarium]

Saying that the players don't have hunger for trophies is the biggest insult i can think of for a team like barcelona. It is easy to sit on a computer and say such things but lets take a bigger picture here. This team has proved again and again that they always give their best to win every match. Lack of concentration in some moments of the match after Puyol left maybe, but that has nothing to do with lack of hunger or desire. In the last decade the way these guys performed no one ever has, what do you want them to do? Win CL every season? You must be stupid to think that is possible.

Lucho has won 2 leagues and 1 CL in his first couple of season. Many coaches can only dream of that start. We could still go and win the league and CL this season, time will tell. Great managers like Carlo Anceloti and Mourinho couldn't get that level success with unlimited resources at their disposal. You have to be grateful for the team and coaches like pep, rijkard and lucho who continues the tradition and style alongside winning trophies. Agreed that lucho made couple of mistakes but who doesn't. He knows it is hard to continue winning matches with Iniesta and Raki starting heavily and is trying to figure some plan B's.

 

[FCBarca]

You can't compare in absolute numbers because Lucho completed two seasons whereas Pep completed four.

I didn't compare in absolute numbers, you did - I merely corrected your error

So you have to use trophies-per-season and Lucho's record is better than Pep's (8 trophies / 2 years = 4 per year vs. 14 / 4 = 3.5 per year). It's a slippery slope to say you can't rely on statistics because then the same applies to Pep and what he inherited from his predecessor. By this logic then no one is worthy of their statistics because someone else always had an impact.

Sample size is far too small to make any sweeping judgements due to 2 seasons. 2 seasons with the greatest attacking trident in history in all likelihood - so yes, it will always be skewed comparing to what Pep accomplished because there was a period of failure at Barcelona prior to Guardiola taking over. A period without consistent winning or playing identity. It's going on 9 years now and still a great deal of today's success is linked to the revolution Pep initiated - to diminish his impact is to ignore not only history but the fundamentals of the club & Cruyff's philosophy.

The difference of course is in how they play which can never be measured by statistics. As someone recently mentioned when watching City play, Guardiola's effect is clear when you watch the team play without even seeing who is on the touchline.

Not many coaches in history have had that effect that simply by watching the play one can reasonably conclude who the coach is. No one is going to ever claim a team plays like a Lucho team

 

[TornAndFrayed]

I didn't compare in absolute numbers, you did - I merely corrected your error

What error ? Lucho is the most successful by the stats, which is what was claimed.

I agree with many of your points about Guardiola btw, but that's not relevant.

 

[FCBarca]

What error ? Lucho is the most successful by the stats, which is what was claimed.

I agree with many of your points about Guardiola btw, but that's not relevant.

Bien sûr, the OP claimed Lucho was more successful in terms of trophies & stats. I contend the stats are irrelevant out of context while trophies, it's simply an erroneous claim

 

[TornAndFrayed]

Bien sûr, the OP claimed Lucho was more successful in terms of trophies & stats. I contend the stats are irrelevant out of context while trophies, it's simply an erroneous claim

He's right about the trophies too, Lucho won 1 more copa del rey and one less supercopa europa at the same stage. Wa can talk about context but those are facts.

 

[FCBarca]

He's right about the trophies too, Lucho won 1 more copa del rey and one less supercopa europa at the same stage. Wa can talk about context but those are facts.

As coaches, Pep won 14 at Barcelona, Luis won 8 - 14 still remains higher than 8. Can't be a more definitive fact than that

 

[TornAndFrayed]

As coaches, Pep won 14 at Barcelona, Luis won 8 - 14 still remains higher than 8. Can't be a more definitive fact than that

No, you have to look at the first two years, or even at the average trophies/year, and Lucho is ahead.

Your fact is: Pep won more trophies in 4 years than Lucho did in two.

 

[BBZ8800]

Saying that the players don't have hunger for trophies is the biggest insult i can think of for a team like barcelona. It is easy to sit on a computer and say such things but lets take a bigger picture here. This team has proved again and again that they always give their best to win every match. Lack of concentration in some moments of the match after Puyol left maybe, but that has nothing to do with lack of hunger or desire. In the last decade the way these guys performed no one ever has, what do you want them to do? Win CL every season? You must be stupid to think that is possible.

You could maybe say that for example, last season against AM, it was not about hunger, but more about Simeone's closing us down.
Well, Simeone played a huge part in our defeat, but in some epic matches (against Chelsea in 2006' for example), even when the opponent create 100s of obstacles, a coach, a team and players somehow find new ways to win against all obstacles.

In 2016 against AM, it looked, at least to me: fuck it, we have no idea how to solve this obstacle. We will try the same thing over and over and if it won't work, well, fuck it, we can't do anything.

About hunger, it was said in the past, and if I remember, Zidane said once: when you are chasing your 1st CL title in your career, you are ready to die on a field and do whatever it takes.
But when you are trying to win your 4th or 5th trophy, you will still try and give your best, but your motivation won't be at the level where it was was in your 1st campaign.

For example, you will give 120% out of yourself in those first campaigns.
While you will play "only" at your 90-99% in your 5th attempt to win a CL.

I mean, players are not robots and human body and human brain doesn't have an unlimited amount of energy/motivation.
Some guys will more or less stay on the same level during their whole career, but for majority of people/players, motivation will slightly drop over years if you have already won that trophy numerous times.

2015' was imo an example where our players lost a motivation, but after a few years of failures, they managed to recharge their batteries and win a trophy.
But since majority of them are older (almost 30) and they won a CL too many times, those recharged batteries couldn't last for too long.

but that has nothing to do with lack of hunger or desire. In the last decade the way these guys performed no one ever has, what do you want them to do? Win CL every season? You must be stupid to think that is possible.

I am not sure if we are talking about the same thing.

I am not saying that our players lack a hunger by default as sportsmen.

Let's say it this way:
-- some players are highly motivated during their whole career and they are always giving their best
-- while some guys don't care too much already from the age 18 or 22 (divas, poor professionalism etc)

So, no, our guys don't have those problems.
Our guys are awesome professionals (majority of them) and have a ton of natural hunger for a success.
But their natural hunger is draining over the years, especially when you are winning a trophy after trophy.

An example (this is not a fact, lol, just an example in numbers):
-- imagine if young Busi and Pique had a hunger for CL trophies at level 100% in 2009, aged 22
-- that level dropped to 90% in 2010
-- after not winning a trophy in 2010, their hunger rised back to 95%, let's say
-- we won in 2011, then their hunger dropped to 85%, since they have 2 trophies now
-- after failures in upcoming seasons, their motivation rised back to 90%-ish in 2015'
-- but after that, since they are approaching 30, their natural hunger is surely lower than it was when they were aged 18 or 21

It doesn't mean that they don't give a fuck about a team, but there is a difference when you are hungry 100% and only 80-90%.

You could have read similar theories and stories from 100s of journalists and coaches in different eras, for example:
(It is not something what I have invented, lol)
https://hbr.org/2015/02/staying-motivated-after-a-major-achievement
Cruijff's team lost motivation after too many La Ligas in a row with the same team.
Rijkaard's team (Ronnie, Etoo, Deco) significantly dropped in hunger after 2 La Ligas in 2005-2006 and a CL in 2006.
The whole crumbled because of that in upcoming years.

So, a fact that our players won 10s of La ligas and CLs in the last 10 years, doesn't have anything to do with what I am saying.
In 2006, key players were Ronnie, Deco, Etoo.
We drained their motivation and then Messi/Henry/Villa stepped in. (Plus, Xavi+Iniesta).
We drained Henry and Villa, then we bought Neymar+Suarez.

My point: you can have a core of players, but you always need a fresh blood, players who will be 120% motivated.
In 2006: only Deco had one 1 CL title.
-- Ronnie, Etoo, Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Puyol=0 titles
In 2009:
-- Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Puyol had 1 title
-- Pique, Busi and other were on 0 before that trophy
In 2011:
-- before a final, Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Puyol had 2 CLs
-- Pique, Busi and other guys 1 trophy
-- after a final, Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Puyol jumped to 3 CLs
-- Pique and Busi jumped to 2 trophies
2015:
-- before a final:
-- Messi, Xavi, Iniesta had 3 Cls
-- Busi and Pique 2
-- BUT, BUT, BUT, Rakitic, Neymar, Suarez (new key players) had 0 CLs (they were a fresh blood)

Look at the current team:
Mats: 1 CL
Alba: 1 Cl
Pique: 3 Cls
Masch: 2 Cls
Roberto: 1 Cl
Busi: 3 Cls
Iniesta: 4 Cls
Rakitic: 1 Cl
Messi: 4 Cls
Neymar: 1 Cl
Suarez: 1 Cl

-- that is 22 CLs for our 11 starters

Now, to get my point about hunger, look at our team from 2006 or from 2009:
2006:
Valdes: 0
Gio: 0
Puyol: 0
Marquez: 0
Oleguer: 0
Edmilson: 0
Deco: 1**
Van Bommel: 0
Ronnie: 0
Etoo: 0
Guily: 0
= 1 Cl in total for 11 players

Ok, I know, when you win a lot of trophies in a decade, it is natural that your team will be filled with starters with lots of CLs on their back.
But again, it brings some psychological problems also on the other hand.

Further, it is hard to measure a level of happiness when we win a trophy, but imo, a win in 2006' (after Belletti's goal for 2:1) and Iniesta's goal against Chelsea in 2009' seemed like the biggest collective emotional moments for our team in the last 10 years.
I am not saying that our players weren't happy in 2015, but... emotions just seemed stronger in 2006 and 2009 after winning goals, since it was their 1st or 2nd time:

Imo, that is the difference between chasing your 1st or 2nd CL and between chasing your 5th CL (Messi and Iniesta today).
There is no way that (for example) Messi's and Iniesta's motivation is on the same level as back then.

 

[FCBarca]

No, you have to look at the first two years, or even at the average trophies/year, and Lucho is ahead.

Your fact is: Pep won more trophies in 4 years than Lucho did in two.

Nothing to do with average and stats - this isn't baseball. The OP said Lucho has won the most trophies of any Barcelona coach, full stop. As you know, il ne faut pas vendre la peau de l’ours! Lucho wins more trophies before his time is done, then that claim can be made else it is hyperbolic nonsense

 

[TornAndFrayed]

Nothing to do with average and stats - this isn't baseball. The OP said Lucho has won the most trophies of any Barcelona coach, full stop. As you know, il ne faut pas vendre la peau de l’ours! Lucho wins more trophies before his time is done, then that claim can be made else it is hyperbolic nonsense

bardh already clarified that he meant it on a yearly basis. i wager most people saw it that way as well since the alternative is nonsensical and bardh doesn't seem a nonsensical person ?

You're right though, the statement was ambiguous

 

[FCBarca]

Equivocation. As I already pointed out, this isn't baseball to go by averages and then claim full stop Lucho has won more trophies. I don't know bardh but hyperbole it was