Lionel Messi - v7

[malvolio]

You speak about Messi at CF/False nine as a role he has never played then want him to play AM.

When has he ever played AM in 4231?

false nine is different to CF. i was wasn't thinking about the classic am in 4231. more of a free role/second striker.

 

[JamDav1982]

false nine is different to CF. i was wasn't thinking about the classic am in 4231. more of a free role/second striker.

I dont think anyone saying play him at CF is expecting anything other than a false nine.

The issue with him playing there in free role as second striker is how much Barca give up defensively in middle of park.

They almost need a system to move him about in games where see the least impact defensively or have a CF that can drop and press for him at times if needed.

 

[Fati_Future_BallonDor]

https://dailypost.ng/2020/08/22/messi-angry-with-barcelona-as-board-members-want-him-sold/

Messi in ANGRY Mode.

 

[FinBarcelonafan]

I feel like I have been saying this for too long, but upcoming season will truly be the "do or die" season for Dembele and his Barcelona career and perhaps even for his career as far as top teams are concerned.

He need to stay injury free and do what is required. There is no excuse for Dembele not working his ass off defensively and pressing up front when Neymar did that for Barca.

He is never going to be Neymar. He doesn't have the work ethic for it.

 

[Morten]

false nine is different to CF. i was wasn't thinking about the classic am in 4231. more of a free role/second striker.

Didnt they stop the false-9 project because while it worked great against average teams, it just stopped working against top teams around 2012?

 

[malvolio]

Didnt they stop the false-9 project because while it worked great against average teams, it just stopped working against top teams around 2012?

yeah, that's why it worked so well for him having a striker like suarez up front. suarez did the dirty stuff bullying defenders and creating space while also being there for one twos.

 

[Vilarrubi]

My man BBZ has been lurking this thread for a solid 40 mins now.

I'm expecting a 2500 word firestorm.

Still haven’t seen him write about Koeman since we got him. Maybe waiting to see how it turns out. But i know a few months ago BBZ was a big Koeman fan and wanted him as coach here. Wrote a massive post about Koeman.

 

[serghei]

Still haven?t seen him write about Koeman since we got him. Maybe waiting to see how it turns out. But i know a few months ago BBZ was a big Koeman fan and wanted him as coach here. Wrote a massive post about Koeman.

Theoretically, he should be a fan. Makes sense.

 

[serghei]

Yup. Expecting Koeman to go in that direction.



The best way to hide Messi's workrate issue is by him playing far more advanced and having a hardworking team behind him with two wingers. You can actually use your flanks that way and play a balanced style of football.

Probably the only way. 4-2-3-1, with Messi and Griezmann down the center. Wingers out wide. Double pivot with De Jong and Pjanic. Would work decently for 1-2 seasons while Messi is here. When Messi moves you can go back to 4-3-3.

But in this instance, I'd still have Messi as more advanced than Griezmann, since Griezmann can do more in defense, helping out the midfield. At least vs bigger teams. Maybe have them interchange.

4-2-3-1 ain't to good either. You'd want a different "9" for that than either Messi or Griezmann. Would be good if we had somebody like Haaland or Lewandowski.

 

[Vilarrubi]

Theoretically, he should be a fan. Makes sense.

I’m on the Koeman train too now, wasn’t too keen before. Will support anyone who comes here, just find it odd now he’s here BBZ hasn’t said one word about him (not that I’ve seen anyway) when he was posting essays before with YouTube clips of him and photos etc in support of him. Like I said maybe waiting to see how it turns out now so he doesn’t look silly if Koeman fails.

 

[serghei]

I’m on the Koeman train too now, wasn’t too keen before. Will support anyone who comes here, just find it odd now he’s here BBZ hasn’t said one word about him (not that I’ve seen anyway) when he was posting essays before with YouTube clips of him and photos etc in support of him. Like I said maybe waiting to see how it turns out now so he doesn’t look silly if Koeman fails.

Too late then.

 

[Latschenkiefer]

Messi has already played in a 4-2-3-1ish system under Valverde. This is not a 4-4-2. But Ernie only used it when we desperately needed a goal.

At 0:43 you can see Suarez getting instructions to change the system and Dembele switching sides at 1:02. The Sevilla chance afterwards only happens because these idiots manage to do this while Sevilla has the ball and Dembele is "out of position". But then we immediately started to create chances. These few minutes contained one the best pieces of football I have seen under Valverde which, however, doesn't say that much. A few minutes after Dembele scored the winning second goal he changed (cowardly) back to a defensive 4-4-2 and we played like shit again.

Btw most teams convert into a 4-4-2 in situations where they weren't able to win the ball back quickly regardless of their attacking system. And I am not buying that 4-2-3-1 necessarily makes us defensively weaker. If Messi loses the ball in 4-3-3, normally our CMs who are positioned a couple of meteres besides him are instantly overrun on the counter. This leaves us with Busquets, two CBs and only if lucky one of the FBs turtleling their way backwards trying to slow down the counter, so that everyone and their wheelchair eventually have time to catch up. In 4-2-3-1 we could mostly get two DMs, two CBs and one and a half FB quickly behind the ball while the DMs would have a real partnership to cover for each other which makes it way harder to overrun them. This was also seen in the game against Sevilla.

 

[ItachiXXX]

Mozart and Salieri is not a good comparison. Salieri is not seen as one of the greatest musicians in history, he's not even in the vicinity of that conversation. More like Mozart and Beethoven.

For me talent wins as well, based on subjective taste. But at the same time, I'm critical of those who sleep on their talent and don't work hard enough anymore, like Messi is guilty of doing in the Champions League, in most of our disaster losses (Atletico, Roma, PSG, Juventus, Bayern, even Liverpool to a degree). He has used his talent to allow him to work less. Most of his fans have fallen in the trap of considering that acceptable.

I can't sell Messi being better than Ronaldo without being biased. Champions League is the biggest club competition and Ronaldo has outperformed Messi in it. It is a black mark for Messi that he has allowed his rival to dominate him on the biggest stage.

I wouldn't classify Messi as a hard worker. I'd consider this as probably his single biggest flaw. He's not used to working hard to win and decide close games. He expects others to do it for him.

What part of TEAM Sports you people here don't understand ?
You like to judge Cristiano and Messi individually, why not in the league where there faces off every year with longer competition and more games

I know you're Messi fans guys, but it's no doubt at this point that Ronaldo has placed himself right up there with Messi, and even beats him in some areas. Never said Ronaldo is a better player than Messi, but career wise, he's similar, and a case can be made that he's even achieved more.

It's one thing to make fun of Ronaldo because of his ridiculous obsessions, his badly done statues, his self-centered persona. It's another thing to look at what he has achieved. He has achieved as much as Messi. In CL he achieved more. In league campaigns Messi has an edge.

Guys pretending Messi is another level compared to Ronaldo career wise are absolutely delusional. What I said in that post in not in any way a hot take or anything of the sort.

Very similar to Federer - Nadal rivalry. At one point it was ridiculous to compare. Now it's not. With superior mentality and work ethic Nadal has placed himself in the same conversation with Federer. Same with Ronaldo and Messi.

It's one thing to prefer one or the other based on taste, style etc. Another thing to completely deny one's achievements and pretend the comparison is not real. It's very real, and it's played on even footing.

People put Messi on another level because he IS. People don't just judge how many goals or trophies his team won, how about other areas that they contribute. Messi literally is the best goal scorer and midfielder for years already

I'm active on a tennis forum, and a good portion of Federer's fan are as delusioned. They argue Federer can't be compared with Djokovic and Nadal. I'm a Federer fan, but there's nothing to back that with solid arguments.

It's simply a stylistic preference, trying to be made to pass as fact.

Why compare team sports to not. That's what the problem here for judging them both with what their Team achievement. Tale away all of that and look at what they contribute on the field and clear as day who's the better player.

 

[ItachiXXX]

its not flawed logic. im literally using the same metric you're using. you conveniently chose to ignore all the other metrics i suggested and arbitrarily decided that H2H was the one to focus on. my reference to muller is simply to illustrate that that metric is flawed. what is your response to these metrics?:
1. CR was key to all his 5 CL wins. Messi was key to 3 of his 4 wins. his first win, in 2006, was led by ronalindho, etoo, and deco.
2. CR has more goals in the CL than messi.
3. of course, that wouldnt count for much if CR had scored all these in the group stage, but, in fact, CR has over 30 more knockout goals than messi.
4. CR has 1 more CL medal than messi. this isnt a massive advantage, but it counts--surely?

what is your response to these? at various times both messi and CR were supported by strong teams; it isnt like one has had a better team the whole time.

How about add their La Liga too, where they're both competing and facing each other twice a season and sometimes more. Every players are key on the field why team win. What part of TEAM you people still don't understand. I just remembered that Messi got two Trebles too or it's his TEAM

When has messi ever been saved like Ronaldo in
Finals alone Ronaldo been saved by Van der Sar in 08, Ramos in 14, team by penalties vs Atletico and Bale the last time.
We need to take in semi finals to add in one Iniesta go asl for Messi.

Same with Argentina in a way.

Imagining what if Higuain save Messi's ass for just one game 😆

 

[ItachiXXX]

He is pissed because Messi can not save his beloved Setien aka Cruyff's successor lol.

FACT, that is driving force to push Messi away from Barca and now trying so hard to put Cristiano as equal with Messi because Cristiano has more UCL goals in more games and with 1 more UCL while Messi only won Two Trebles well actually Messi's TEAM won it

What facts? Both teams had the best teammates and the best managers. They had the luxury of playing for the best teams around in the last 10+ years.

/thread
This dude already admitted Valverde is one of the BEST Managers