Lionel Messi - v7

Daniele

Member
Or maybe he runs the same.

But last season his stamina was 70/100 (like in video games) and this season it dropped to 60/100 because he is 1 year older.

So, even the same amount of running like the last season might be too much for him.

Add to this that he wants to play every single minute of every single game.
Plus, fixtures are more crowded in this season because the season started later (La liga, CL, NT matches).

So:
1. 33.5 years
2. Crowded fixtures
3. He wants to play every match
= you get a tired Messi who can't run, dribble or score.

But even then the coach is not allowed to bench him.
Fc Messi, more than a club.

MAYBE :D

maybe you're right.
Or maybe a coach who won the CL is right.
https://www.sport.es/en/news/barca/fabio-capello-ive-never-seen-leo-messi-run-so-much-8180820

Anyway, this is the classic form of an argument based on a cognitive bias: going from a premise that is subjective and not verified to a certain conclusion.
(and attention. I am not here to defend Messi, but to expose the poverty of some of your arguments.)
 

mc_lovin

Senior Member
The funny thing is that Koeman kind of solved Messis positional issue? We look compact enough as a team with him in the center, have two wingers and a CF upfront (on paper). Problem is that Griezmann offers nothing there. I would really like to see how we would look this season with prime Etoo/Suarez/Villa there. We can talk about tactics all day, and Messis obvious decline, but we lack quality more than anything - irregardless of Messi.
 

BBZ8800

Senior Member
Some shocking stats.
This season in Barca's shirt, shooting attempts without penaldos:

Dembele 4/2
Fati 16/5 (shots/goals)
Cou 14/2
Griezz 9/1
Messi 36/0

From Goat to Woat.
 

Morten

Senior Member
Some shocking stats.
This season in Barca's shirt, shooting attempts without penaldos:

Dembele 4/2
Fati 16/5 (shots/goals)
Cou 14/2
Griezz 9/1
Messi 36/0

From Goat to Woat.

And people have dreams of Messi as false 9 still, lol.
He is good at many thing still, being a striker is not one of them.
 

KingLeo10

Senior Member
He ran 8,5 km/game in the 2010-11 CL campaign, since then i'm convinced his km/games hasn't been higher then that.

He never ran much, i doubt he ever averaged much more then 9 km/game.

8.5 - 9 km is still a huge difference for someone of Messi's talent. He averages 6.5 - 7.5 km these days in CL games so 8.5-9 km translates to anywhere from 15-30% increased Messi activity on the pitch. Now I'm not saying he needs to exert himself this much in ALL CL games but I think you'd probably agree that he would be served better by giving extra in key CL games. I don't know the numbers off the top of my head but in the home Liverpool leg, he clocked more than 8 km or just about. I'd be interested to see how this compares with his effort on Anfield. I could be wrong and both could be even but if someone has the numbers...
 

Birdy

Senior Member
Not calling you dishonest but genuinely curious where you got that 15/50 stats?

Whoscored got his dribbling yesterday at 80% success rate.

here's the link: https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1492047/Live/Spain-LaLiga-2020-2021-Deportivo-Alaves-Barcelona

Other stats:

Shots:
Leo 10 shots at goal (5 on target, 2 off T, 3 blocked) / Fati 4 shots (1 on T, 2 off, 1 blocked) / Pedri 0 shot / Griezz 2 shots (1 on T, 1 off) / Trink 2 shots (2 blocked)

Passes:
Leo 77%, 51 completed, 4 key passes / Fati 89%, 33 completed, 3 key passes / Pedri 75%, 38 completed, 4 key passes / Griezz 86%, 31 completed, 0 key passes / Trink 92%, 34 completed, 0 key passes

Dribbles:
Leo 15 attempted, 12 won / Fati 8 attempted, 2 won / Pedri 2 attempted, 1 won / Griezz O attempted / Trink 2 attempted, 1 won

Dispossessed:
Leo 3x / Fati 1x / Pedri 1x / Griezz 1x / Trink 1x

Indeed he sucked if you compare him to GOAT NEO but if you compare him to a regular player, he's still producing positive actions (in attack anyways).

Ideally, he'd stay upfront and focus on scoring or making that final pass or pre-assist. Our current players are plenty good enough to take the ball upwards.

He could then use his energy bursts to dribble past defenders / or do runs behind them and he'd still have enough in the tank to better focus on his shots. This alone should improve his goal conversion rate which is, post-covid, at a career low.

Also, coach should give the dude some rest! This is just common sense looking at the numbers of players getting injured right and left.

We should ditch the double pivot. Frenkie and Pjanic are plenty good enough to play single CDM. Most thrilling would be to front them with Pedri (couti) and Puig (griezz) in a 4 3 3 :thinking:

As for Leo's not finding the net, hopefully, it's a bad patch and temp set-back. His results are so uncharacteristic of him. This year, he's at <10% conversion rate whereas last season, he was at 21.74% non-penalty goals. For them to stay that low is if somehow, BBZ is right and he suddenly got super old super fast. Another theory is that his mind is playing tricks on him and he is unconsciously sabotaging his own shots. That would be whack but it's a possibility lol

Either these or some deep core blue voodoo shit :rip:

I was exaggerating, did not provide an actual stat.
But since you did some work to answer, here is my reply for you:

What is the usefulness of 13 take-ons if in the very next move he surrendered possession??
What part of the 77% success rate passes were made close to the opposition box?
He was straight-away dispossessed 3 times, but if you add all his misplaced passes and moves that resulted in a loss of possession?? Oh boy, oh boy...

(unfortunately I did not manage to find the sophisticated stats I want in the usual places I look, so I have to rely on a qualitative-descriptive analysis)
Here is a 9 min clip with every touch by Messi from the game vs Alaves

What do we see in the clip? We see him surrendering possession around half of the time he touches the ball. Either with a failed dribble or with a misplaced pass or with a poor shot.
I do not have the count, but check it yourself.

Now, what about the ones that did not? Most of these are easy passes to his teammates originating close to the halfway line and away from the opposition's box.
And I don't even mention all the other problematic aspects: his positional chaos, his slowness both of the tempo and of his runs, his decision-making (every time he chooses to do his thing there is always a better option), etc ...

All in all, the whole game, he provided danger only twice: the FK that was saved on the line (1.39 min in the clip) and a shot from inside the box in the 2nd half (6.00 min in the clip). So, only once from open play.
Whatever he tried close to the opposition box, the area where he is supposed to create danger, failed.

So, what can the Messi fanboys here (not you) that are blindly supporting him answer to that fact?
That we need a better Frenkie or Busi to pass the ball from the halfway line to the other pivot or to full back in a regressed position?
Messi fanboys, you have to come up with something better than this.
You are ridiculing yourselves with that kind of argumentation.
 

Kul_z

Senior Member
Some shocking stats.
This season in Barca's shirt, shooting attempts without penaldos:

Dembele 4/2
Fati 16/5 (shots/goals)
Cou 14/2
Griezz 9/1
Messi 36/0

From Goat to Woat.

Some shocking stats:

1. Real Sociedad
2. Real Madrid
3. Atletico
4. Cadiz
5. Granada
6. Villareal
7. Betis
8. Getafe
9. Osasuna
10. Elche
11. Bilbao
12. Barcelona

Lets take your logic. That means that all those goals mean fuck all but not points.

Cry me a river
 

Mitchell1978

Senior Member
8.5 - 9 km is still a huge difference for someone of Messi's talent. He averages 6.5 - 7.5 km these days in CL games so 8.5-9 km translates to anywhere from 15-30% increased Messi activity on the pitch. Now I'm not saying he needs to exert himself this much in ALL CL games but I think you'd probably agree that he would be served better by giving extra in key CL games. I don't know the numbers off the top of my head but in the home Liverpool leg, he clocked more than 8 km or just about. I'd be interested to see how this compares with his effort on Anfield. I could be wrong and both could be even but if someone has the numbers...

Last season in La Liga it was 7,5, 2018-19 it was 7,8 km/game i think (and yet he dominated). CL numbers are probably similar.
 

BBZ8800

Senior Member
Some shocking stats:

1. Real Sociedad
2. Real Madrid
3. Atletico
4. Cadiz
5. Granada
6. Villareal
7. Betis
8. Getafe
9. Osasuna
10. Elche
11. Bilbao
12. Barcelona

Lets take your logic. That means that all those goals mean fuck all but not points.

Cry me a river


They mean fck because Messi ruined almost every match.

Remove him from 6 matches with his 0/36 success rate and put anyone else.

There is no way that we would be worse than now.

If he was not named Messi, people would curse over his performances.

Imagine if Suarez had 30 shots and 8 matches without a goal?
People would say that he should never wear our shirt again.

Yet, Messi's 0/36 are viewed as magical because he plays a successful forward pass here and there out of 90 touches per match atound a box.
 

BBZ8800

Senior Member
His finishing was also trash in 13/14 but he has recovered it so lets hope he does it again.

He was 26-27 back then.

Ronaldinho declined aged 28.
Rivaldo aged 30.
Shevchenko aged 30-ish.

Yet you guys expect from a soon to be 34-guy without motivation to rediscover his pace and form.

How?
 

Kul_z

Senior Member
I was exaggerating, did not provide an actual stat.
But since you did some work to answer, here is my reply for you:

What is the usefulness of 13 take-ons if in the very next move he surrendered possession??
What part of the 77% success rate passes were made close to the opposition box?
He was straight-away dispossessed 3 times, but if you add all his misplaced passes and moves that resulted in a loss of possession?? Oh boy, oh boy...

(unfortunately I did not manage to find the sophisticated stats I want in the usual places I look, so I have to rely on a qualitative-descriptive analysis)
Here is a 9 min clip with every touch by Messi from the game vs Alaves

What do we see in the clip? We see him surrendering possession around half of the time he touches the ball. Either with a failed dribble or with a misplaced pass or with a poor shot.
I do not have the count, but check it yourself.

Now, what about the ones that did not? Most of these are easy passes to his teammates originating close to the halfway line and away from the opposition's box.
And I don't even mention all the other problematic aspects: his positional chaos, his slowness both of the tempo and of his runs, his decision-making (every time he chooses to do his thing there is always a better option), etc ...

All in all, the whole game, he provided danger only twice: the FK that was saved on the line (1.39 min in the clip) and a shot from inside the box in the 2nd half (6.00 min in the clip). So, only once from open play.
Whatever he tried close to the opposition box, the area where he is supposed to create danger, failed.

So, what can the Messi fanboys here (not you) that are blindly supporting him answer to that fact?
That we need a better Frenkie or Busi to pass the ball from the halfway line to the other pivot or to full back in a regressed position?
Messi fanboys, you have to come up with something better than this.
You are ridiculing yourselves with that kind of argumentation.

So much drama about nothing. What do you mean failed? He didnt scored, yes. We lost points like we already had this season, yes. Were we unlucky? Tell me no please. You guys always bring something like fanboyism, its true, im a fan of a guy who carried this shitshow of a team for a 4 years span without that much help of other complaced fuckers, and now, when our main guy is out of form, with his head clearly not in his place in this exact moment, you would crucify him like he is some andre gomes level player. For fuck sake, even jesus would be jealous of those kinda of judas in barca's rank.
 

Kul_z

Senior Member
They mean fck because Messi ruined almost every match.

Remove him from 6 matches with his 0/36 success rate and put anyone else.

There is no way that we would be worse than now.

If he was not named Messi, people would curse over his performances.

Imagine if Suarez had 30 shots and 8 matches without a goal?
People would say that he should never wear our shirt again.

Yet, Messi's 0/36 are viewed as magical because he plays a successful forward pass here and there out of 90 touches per match atound a box.

You didnt answered my question. Messi ruined every match?
 

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