Lionel Messi - v7

[Mitchell1978]

The biggest decline is due to his mentality and his way of handing himself as a professional player. Yes, he has declined a lot, but he'd still be one of the finest players around if he just had a different mindset and personality.

He has enough quality left to make a difference, but he listens to nobody and does whatever he wants. The managers are there to help him, not to do what he tells them. It's sad.

I blame the club more than Messi for how they handled his late-career, but Messi has surely gone on a wrong path post Guardiola.

The flatearther analogy is actually a pretty good one when you read the usualy vomit that comes from serghei.

 

[Ajking88]

Talk about an overreaction on here. Messi has played worse and he just had a good game against Juve.. give the man a break.


Greatest player of all time.

 

[Daniele]

This is not going to happen, so keep dreaming. RK isn't going to bench Messi, the past three coaches haven't. Heck even Lucho couldn't.

dreaming is the salt of cheering my friend. Or maybe is it better to constantly complain about the team, the manager and the players?
Different points of view on how to choose to follow the game

 

[serghei]

This is not going to happen, so keep dreaming. RK isn't going to bench Messi, the past three coaches haven't. Heck even Lucho couldn't.

He has the most reasons to do it. Messi was great or at least pretty damn good in Lucho's tenure. It's like KingLeo said. If he delivers, you have no reasons to bench him because we're not rewarding good-behavior, we're a football club who runs on football terms.

But Messi is performing poorly. So you have a lot of reasons to bench him now.

 

[Horatio]

Nobody thinks he is slowly getting back in his groove?

 

[serghei]

The flatearther analogy is actually a pretty good one when you read the usualy vomit that comes from serghei.

I said it before. I don't care what Messi fanboys have to say about me. To me your opinion is worth nothing, no offense. You're just too much of a Messi fan to see beyond that. I am speaking strictly in relation to Messi situation, I have no idea how you are like in other issues.

Fanboys make the worst debaters. They are caught in their little bubble and take any attack on their idol as a personal affront.

 

[serghei]

Nobody thinks he is slowly getting back in his groove?

I'll tell you what. I like some signs. I think in his head alarm bells are finally ringing. Let's see how he will react in the next several games. Now it's time for him to see the many signs and work on his issues.

The good part is that, vs Alaves, he was visibly trying and showing his frustration at himself. Which are good signs that he is at least self critical in these moments.

If he can turn that into something positive, he will procure himself a good two more seasons at a high level. If not... he will sink lower and lower and closer to retirement (going to USA or something like that is similar to retirement).

The problem is with him currently. Not with anybody else.

 

[Birdy]

Your theories often have to do with gossip and with facts that have little to do with the playing field.

For now all this noise you make doesn't have much to do with genuine cheering on the team. Which I expect in a fan forum. Cheers

Gossip? Seriously?
Setien said today in his interview that Messi does not want to be managed.
And you count that as gossip?
Please, wake up!

Genuine cheering is stupid if it is not complemented with critical thinking. Being a fan or loving a club entails wanting the best for it, and this in turn entails thinking critically about what the best is.
Blind cheering is not for me.

The biggest decline is due to his mentality and his way of handing himself as a professional player. Yes, he has declined a lot, but he'd still be one of the finest players around if he just had a different mindset and personality.

He has enough quality left to make a difference, but he listens to nobody and does whatever he wants. The managers are there to help him, not to do what he tells them. It's sad.

I blame the club more than Messi for how they handled his late-career, but Messi has surely gone on a wrong path post Guardiola.

His mentality has always been the same, and we can discuss whether his mentality has always been ill.
But until recently he could get away with it because of his performances on pitch.
With 15/50 dribbles, mentality becomes a secondary problem

 

[serghei]

His mentality has always been the same, and we can discuss whether his mentality has always been ill.
But until recently he could get away with it because of his performances on pitch.
With 15/50 dribbles, mentality becomes a secondary problem

He was a genius player, so he could afford that mentality because he was operating at untouchable levels. Now it's a different story. He needs to change his ways fundamentally. But instead of changing he became even worse in this area, and even harder to control.

Us as a club the same. We could afford to spoil Messi and let him do his thing, disobey managers, threaten them and so on, because he was putting in insane performances week after week and the trophies were flowing. However, at some point, we started to collect more humiliations than big trophies. The club needs to wake up and put a stop to this, before the rot infects our reconstruction plan.

Or else, having 4-5 years of dwelling in mediocrity in CL is not out of the realm of possibility. And no La Liga title to save the day. Even a Copa del Rey will be a thing of note. All depends on the next 1-2 years and what the next president and board will do.

 

[BBZ8800]

In summary, I think Messi should study the likes of Zlatan and CR7 so he can see how best to fit the team while he's aging (fewer dribbles, more passes, and maintaining his position in the formation) and not focusing on himself while making the team fit him. We should be good to go if he can do that, else he should be benched till he tries to fit the team.

Impossible.

Zlatan is slow but he scores a lot of goals due to his height, strength and positioning in the box (headers).
Cr7 also scores mostly headers and tap ins.

Messi is short and slow.
He always relied on finishing with feet and dribbles.
His positioning, off the ball movement and presence in the box is poor.

Younger Messi was a GOAT of goals with feet.
And bad in other aspects.
Cr7 and Zlatan were not as good as Messi with feet but they were allrounders.

And now, both Zlatan and Cr7 lost pace but they still have some other weapons.
While with Messi, he always had only one weapon. And now all of his weapons are gone: pace, acceleration, dribbles, lethal finishing.

The question: how can Messi turn into Zlatan and Cr7 when he doesn't possess those skills?

To some extent, Messi is like Pep.
On prime, it was an unstoppable machine.
But when that machine stops working, you get a sterile one-dimensional the most predictable product in the world who can't play in any other way.

 

[serghei]

Impossible.

Zlatan is slow but he scores a lot of goals due to his height, strength and positioning in the box (headers).
Cr7 also scores mostly headers and tap ins.

Messi is short and slow.
He always relied on finishing with feet and dribbles.
His positioning, off the ball movement and presence in the box is poor.

Younger Messi was a GOAT of goals with feet.
And bad in other aspects.
Cr7 and Zlatan were not as good as Messi with feet but they were allrounders.

And now, both Zlatan and Cr7 lost pace but they still have some other weapons.
While with Messi, he always had only one weapon. And now all of his weapons are gone: pace, acceleration, dribbles, lethal finishing.

The question: how can Messi turn into Zlatan and Cr7 when he doesn't possess those skills?

To some extent, Messi is like Pep.
On prime, it was an unstoppable machine.
But when that machine stops working, you get a sterile one-dimensional the most predictable product in the world who can't play in any other way.

That's undeniable. The more you depend on quickness, the more you decline with age. The more physicality you have, the more you can use that to compensate for aspects you will lose over time.

 

[snowy]

..
With 15/50 dribbles, mentality becomes a secondary problem

Not calling you dishonest but genuinely curious where you got that 15/50 stats?

Whoscored got his dribbling yesterday at 80% success rate.

here's the link: https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1492047/Live/Spain-LaLiga-2020-2021-Deportivo-Alaves-Barcelona

Other stats:

Shots:
Leo 10 shots at goal (5 on target, 2 off T, 3 blocked) / Fati 4 shots (1 on T, 2 off, 1 blocked) / Pedri 0 shot / Griezz 2 shots (1 on T, 1 off) / Trink 2 shots (2 blocked)

Passes:
Leo 77%, 51 completed, 4 key passes / Fati 89%, 33 completed, 3 key passes / Pedri 75%, 38 completed, 4 key passes / Griezz 86%, 31 completed, 0 key passes / Trink 92%, 34 completed, 0 key passes

Dribbles:
Leo 15 attempted, 12 won / Fati 8 attempted, 2 won / Pedri 2 attempted, 1 won / Griezz O attempted / Trink 2 attempted, 1 won

Dispossessed:
Leo 3x / Fati 1x / Pedri 1x / Griezz 1x / Trink 1x

Indeed he sucked if you compare him to GOAT NEO but if you compare him to a regular player, he's still producing positive actions (in attack anyways).

Ideally, he'd stay upfront and focus on scoring or making that final pass or pre-assist. Our current players are plenty good enough to take the ball upwards.

He could then use his energy bursts to dribble past defenders / or do runs behind them and he'd still have enough in the tank to better focus on his shots. This alone should improve his goal conversion rate which is, post-covid, at a career low.

Also, coach should give the dude some rest! This is just common sense looking at the numbers of players getting injured right and left.

We should ditch the double pivot. Frenkie and Pjanic are plenty good enough to play single CDM. Most thrilling would be to front them with Pedri (couti) and Puig (griezz) in a 4 3 3

As for Leo's not finding the net, hopefully, it's a bad patch and temp set-back. His results are so uncharacteristic of him. This year, he's at <10% conversion rate whereas last season, he was at 21.74% non-penalty goals. For them to stay that low is if somehow, BBZ is right and he suddenly got super old super fast. Another theory is that his mind is playing tricks on him and he is unconsciously sabotaging his own shots. That would be whack but it's a possibility lol

Either these or some deep core blue voodoo shit

 

[Respekt_III]

Not calling you dishonest but genuinely curious where you got that 15/50 stats?

Whoscored got his dribbling yesterday at 80% success rate.

here's the link: https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1492047/Live/Spain-LaLiga-2020-2021-Deportivo-Alaves-Barcelona

Other stats:

Shots:
Leo 10 shots at goal (5 on target, 2 off T, 3 blocked) / Fati 4 shots (1 on T, 2 off, 1 blocked) / Pedri 0 shot / Griezz 2 shots (1 on T, 1 off) / Trink 2 shots (2 blocked)

Passes:
Leo 77%, 51 completed, 4 key passes / Fati 89%, 33 completed, 3 key passes / Pedri 75%, 38 completed, 4 key passes / Griezz 86%, 31 completed, 0 key passes / Trink 92%, 34 completed, 0 key passes

Dribbles:
Leo 15 attempted, 12 won / Fati 8 attempted, 2 won / Pedri 2 attempted, 1 won / Griezz O attempted / Trink 2 attempted, 1 won

Dispossessed:
Leo 3x / Fati 1x / Pedri 1x / Griezz 1x / Trink 1x

Indeed he sucked if you compare him to GOAT NEO but if you compare him to a regular player, he's still producing positive actions (in attack anyways).

Ideally, he'd stay upfront and focus on scoring or making that final pass or pre-assist. Our current players are plenty good enough to take the ball upwards.

He could then use his energy bursts to dribble past defenders / or do runs behind them and he'd still have enough in the tank to better focus on his shots. This alone should improve his goal conversion rate which is, post-covid, at a career low.

Also, coach should give the dude some rest! This is just common sense looking at the numbers of players getting injured right and left.

We should ditch the double pivot. Frenkie and Pjanic are plenty good enough to play single CDM. Most thrilling would be to front them with Pedri (couti) and Puig (griezz) in a 4 3 3

As for Leo's not finding the net, hopefully, it's a bad patch and temp set-back. His results are so uncharacteristic of him. This year, he's at <10% conversion rate whereas last season, he was at 21.74% non-penalty goals. For them to stay that low is if somehow, BBZ is right and he suddenly got super old super fast. Another theory is that his mind is playing tricks on him and he is unconsciously sabotaging his own shots. That would be whack but it's a possibility lol

Either these or some deep core blue voodoo shit

did you watch the game? seriously?

 

[snowy]

All the dribbles mentioned, he did pull them off. He was below par in the shooting department. Point is, if you're actively looking for parts where players fuck up, it's easy to find them for any player.

I perso like risky players so I have a higher tolerance for lost balls than most fans of the game

btw, just checked the Voodoo part, his conversion rate is sub 5%

 

[serghei]

All the dribbles mentioned, he did pull them off. He was below par in the shooting department. Point is, if you're actively looking for parts where players fuck up, it's easy to find them for any player.

I perso like risky players so I have a higher tolerance for lost balls than most fans of the game

btw, just checked the Voodoo part, his conversion rate is sub 5%

More than half of those stats are volume related. If I have the ball much more than others, I make more passes, more dribbles, I get fouled more, I attempt more through balls. It's logical, and it doesn't mean it's good.

His stats get inflated because he has a disproportional role compared with any other player. He gets passed to constantly.

I want the stats for how many touches and passes Son has in a match compared with Messi. I'd be surprised if Son gets access to 20% the actions Messi gets per game. And yet, he scores more, assists more, and creates more chances.

It's all about impact / volume of balls played. Messi's impact is very low compared with the volume of passes and dribbles he attempts. It can only mean that his dribbles are done in lower-danger areas. Not all dribbles are the same. The higher quality ones are in the box, where the spaces are tighter and every dribble can procure a goal scoring chance.

If you drop 35 meters, dribble two random dudes (usually not defenders, because that deep area is covered by more attacking players), than attempt a fancy pass that goes straight to the opponent, that's not creating much. The stats sites probably register those useless dribbles and count them as success.

You need more data, and you need it structured differently. For example, it would be useful to find out what percentage of Messi dribbles are close to goal (let's say in the 16m box), compared with Son's. I bet Son's dribbles are way closer to goal than Messi's. And yet he has almost the same take-on success rate. That is how you can explain why Son scores more and creates more. Because in his case, almost all of his dribbles are done in key areas, and doing those dribbles allow Son to either score or assist.

You need a way way more in depth analysis to hope to get somewhat of a clearer picture using numbers and stats. These are just child's play. Some numbers put there by some IT guys who click some buttons.