FC Barcelona Tactics

[DonAndres]

Adding the entire system I was talking about would change the look of our formation and make it more unpredictable, in addition to stretching the play. A sweeper in a back four is where he's most useful. In a back three, they could easily be caught out by diagonal passes and putting more players up against the sweeper. In the back four, the pressure on him makes little difference as he's covered from the front and only needs to focus on eliminating all their passing options behind the back line. I'm not talking about just being the "defensive hipsters" of football by being innovative, but using a method which could prove effective in eliminating one of the main ways we get broken down defensively.

 

[Hamzah]

I see what you're saying. Though now I think you're creating an elaborate name for something that happens anyway. In a back four one centre back will rush out to close threats in front while the other covers the space in behind more often. Any good back four would work like this.

For example at Real Madrid while both centre backs do both duties Pepe more often closes down threats in front if the back four, while Ramos covers the space behind. He is also an organiser and ball playing defender.

As for the thing about sweeper in a back three... This is pointless discussing but the nature of a back three vs a back four shows that a sweeper is more effective in a back three. If you really want I could talk more about this but it's not important.

The solution for our defence is better pressing. This stops most counters at their source and very few get through, this is why we had a good defence in the last compared to now. We also have the problem that we have no covering centre back. This is because of Puyol's injuries/decline. He filled this role before of covering the space in behind and usually intercepted the passes in behind. With Mascherano we don't have this, he is better at closing the space in front. Both piqué and masch are not good at controlling the space behind and this is why we concede more (in addition to the fullback problem)

 

[DonAndres]

Defense systems often work like that, but I'm talking about the permanent sweeper which changes the formation of our defense and deep midfield while we cover attacks. Usually the back four would split into one stopper and one sweeper at the last second in an attempt to block the attack both ways (front and back). However if you keep it with one stopper and one sweeper primarily, then it "discourages" the attack from being played in the first place and the fact that the system works with all areas being covered makes them often overhit passes or get nowhere trying to find a way through.

I'm not saying a sweeper-system is absolutely necessary or anything like that. All I'm saying is with the very different nature of the system it could be very interesting to try and the added ingenuity it gives in both formation and defense could possibly change the look of our game which has been the same for a while now. Obviously we could more easily fix the problems in our system (balanced fullbacks, better CB pairing, pressing, etc.) and maintain a decent defense instead of one that conceded 13 games in a row, but I don't think it hurts to try new things and different systems every now and then to see how well it would work for our players and maybe end up reaping the benefits of an ingenious finding along the way.

 

[Hamzah]

Sure. It would be good to try out at least. I'm just skeptical of whether it would work or not. It's better to have a flat back four with the centre backs splitting into the different roles when a pass is played to an opposition player and the opposition get between the lines. The one closer closes him down while the other covers the space behind. With better pressing from the forwards and midfield they'll have to deal with the situation less often and we need a centre back with pace that can cover the space behind. Defence problems pretty much solved.

If you have them split up permanently it creates too many problems. The guy covering will play opposition onside and they can get you with the throughball, if not the the middle striker (your idea is that throughballs to the middle are intercepted by the sweeper) but to the wings that the sweeper is too far away to cover which will lead to a goal. At least with a flat back four you have the option to play offside.

Also any pass where an opposition player gets the ball between the lines and is not directly within 5m of the guy that's permanently in front that's supposed to close down can easily use his superior speed to get past him and directly one v one with the covering centre back. This will probably lead to a goal.

It's much easier to just make the simple changes I just said. It works and doesn't get carried away with in the clouds theories.

 

[DonAndres]

With the pressure, it's too difficult to play an inch perfect diagonal through ball that's away from the sweeper. The passer will be being pressed/covered so the circumstances are bad for him and after that he'll end up overhitting the pass away from his forward as well as the sweeper which gives more time for the defenders to shut down space. Plus the point is to isolate the passer from the attacker, so his pass will likely take enough time for the sweeper to reposition himself and close down space. This is the best way to force them to make errors.

 

[JamDav1982]

Playing a sweeper in back four is a terrible idea and never ever works.

You are instantly giving the other team a one man advantage in a more important part of the field.

 

[Hamzah]

You can achieve the same effect with a flat back four. If there's pressure on the ball and they make a pass, one of the centre backs covers the space behind and intercepts it. There's no need for its to be permanently split up like that.

If it is permanently split up, counter attacking passes to the wings are easy even under pressure, you just hit a high ball out to the wing, where their quick player will have a head start on your fullback and still be onside because your permanent sweeper plays him on. The sweeper would not reach the ball to the wing to be able to intercept, he can only control e space behind in the middle. If you had a flat back four, their pass to the wing is harder because they must be behind the fullback or they are offside, because there's no guy behind everyone else to play him onside. Your fullback can keep pace with him to reach the ball first as he has a head start.

This sweeper system with a high line is suicide.

 

[DonAndres]

The point of the system is for the back line to be very flexible. If the winger is in free space, then the sweeper would naturally go to confront him in a 1v1 while the other defenders drop behind him to cover that space. The sweeper system won't help us block crosses/aerial duels any better than we do now, but through ball situations can be effectively stopped.If there is a wide forward, it'll be too difficult to play a diagonal ball into him because he'd be isolated and unable to make anything out of it. If it's a winger, the sweeper is the first one on the scene to confront him after the fullback was caught out (unlike in a flat back line where if the fullback is beaten then the winger basically gets a breakaway with the CB's unable to catch up to him). If it's a CF, it's easy and basic enough for the sweeper to stop him as that's his first job.

 

[JamDav1982]

The point of the system is for the back line to be very flexible. If the winger is in free space, then the sweeper would naturally go to confront him in a 1v1 while the other defenders drop behind him to cover that space. The sweeper system won't help us block crosses/aerial duels any better than we do now, but through ball situations can be effectively stopped.If there is a wide forward, it'll be too difficult to play a diagonal ball into him because he'd be isolated and unable to make anything out of it. If it's a winger, the sweeper is the first one on the scene to confront him after the fullback was caught out (unlike in a flat back line where if the fullback is beaten then the winger basically gets a breakaway with the CB's unable to catch up to him). If it's a CF, it's easy and basic enough for the sweeper to stop him as that's his first job.

A sweeper in a back four doesnt work at all especially not in a team like Barca that expect to dominate games.

It would be a teribble idea.

Teams these days dont play like that for a reason and the players would hate it.

 

[DonAndres]

A sweeper in a back four doesnt work at all especially not in a team like Barca that expect to dominate games.

It would be a teribble idea.

Teams these days dont play like that for a reason and the players would hate it.

It's not like we're automatically gonna start sitting back and defending if the sweeper is put into place. Teams don't play like that these days and it's a gamble because it's not used but theoretically it works and why not try it out in a few friendlies or games vs relegation teams?

 

[Hamzah]

If the winger is in free space he will have the pace to reach the goal area and take a shot before your sweeper even reaches him. Even if he does reach him, you just willingly exposed yourself to a 1v1, where he can deibble past your sweeper and score.The thing would happen so fast your other defenders wouldn't be able to get back in time either. So even if your sweeper goes to close down the breakaway winger now the striker is free for an easy pass and goal.

It's not difficult to play that ball it's easy even under pressure. All they have to do is hit a high pass to the wing in the space, not much precision involved.

The rare occasion the flat back four is caught out is because there wasn't good pressure on the ball, you'd have even worse problems with your new system, because the winger has a head start on the fullback and is still onside, whereas in a flat back four the fullback MUST have a head start for thier wingerto be onside in the first place. He can them reach the through pass first.

"theoretically it works" no it doesn't.

 

[JamDav1982]

It's not like we're automatically gonna start sitting back and defending if the sweeper is put into place. Teams don't play like that these days and it's a gamble because it's not used but theoretically it works and why not try it out in a few friendlies or games vs relegation teams?

It doesnt work at all and thats why teams dont play it.

You would be asking the fullbacks to tuck in more, would be decreasing the passing options in midfield and also decreasing the pressing in the middle of the park.

If Barca started playing like that it was be the end to just about everything their style just now stands for.

It would be horrible.

 

[DonAndres]

If the winger is in free space he will have the pace to reach the goal area and take a shot before your sweeper even reaches him. Even if he does reach him, you just willingly exposed yourself to a 1v1, where he can deibble past your sweeper and score.The thing would happen so fast your other defenders wouldn't be able to get back in time either.

It's not difficult to play that ball it's easy even under pressure. All they have to do is hit a high pass to the wing in the space, not much precision involved.

The rare occasion the flat back four is caught out is because there wasn't good pressure on the ball, you'd have even worse problems with your new system, because the winger has a head start on the fullback and is still onside, whereas in a flat back four the fullback MUST have a head start for him to be onside in the first place. He can them reach the through pass first.

"theoretically it works" no it doesn't.

The sweeper doesn't have as hard a job of reaching the winger in the first place as he was already in between him and the goal, plus it would be a 1v1 but then the other defenders have time to run back behind the sweeper and cover in case he gets beaten. In a flat back line the advantage is with offside, but with the sweeper it'd take a wicked solo goal to actually score from there while being covered.

The difference is with a flat back line that it's all or nothing, there is little time left and if the fullback or CB gets beaten it's just a 1v1 with the goalkeeper and almost a sure goal. With the sweeper, if a fullback gets beaten then the sweeper is there to take the player on and buy time, if he gets beaten after that then by that time the other CB and opposite fullback have already ran back to cover him as well. It's not as black or white and you have several chances to make up for one or two players not being able to do the job correctly.

 

[DonAndres]

It doesnt work at all and thats why teams dont play it.

You would be asking the fullbacks to tuck in more, would be decreasing the passing options in midfield and also decreasing the pressing in the middle of the park.

If Barca started playing like that it was be the end to just about everything their style just now stands for.

It would be horrible.

Fullbacks don't have to both tuck in but if the ball is on the left flank then the RB tucks in and remains defensive and vice versa. The defense is flexible and wraps around the play, doesn't just stay rigid and flat.

 

[JamDav1982]

The sweeper doesn't have as hard a job of reaching the winger in the first place as he was already in between him and the goal, plus it would be a 1v1 but then the other defenders have time to run back behind the sweeper and cover in case he gets beaten. In a flat back line the advantage is with offside, but with the sweeper it'd take a wicked solo goal to actually score from there while being covered.

The difference is with a flat back line that it's all or nothing, there is little time left and if the fullback or CB gets beaten it's just a 1v1 with the goalkeeper and almost a sure goal. With the sweeper, if a fullback gets beaten then the sweeper is there to take the player on and buy time, if he gets beaten after that then by that time the other CB and opposite fullback have already ran back to cover him as well. It's not as black or white and you have several chances to make up for one or two players not being able to do the job correctly.

Seriously need to give that up.

It will never happen at Barca and is just about the total opposite of what the team stand for.

No team plays that way for a reason.

You say it would be better to stop teams from through balls etc well the exact reason teams dont play a sweeper is that it increases the time the and space the oppostion have in dangerous areas and dangerous situations more likely not less!