Arthur

[JamDav1982]

Ok, and knowing this, I think we should:

1. Get the forward-winger to replace Suarez with (It's paramount to break Messi-Suarez pair).

2. Get a 3rd midfielder. Get a cheaper one if the money aren't enough, but one who shows promise in the area we need.

3. Bring Todibo back.

It's enough to start.

Suarez and Busquets are untouchable but agree they need replaced.

If Busquets has to be in midfield better off with FDJ beside him as a pair and it is Busquets they allow step forward when teams are sitting and FDJ covers.

From there put Arthur in CM and tell him he has to step up with linking the forward players more.

This idea of Busi as lone DM is awful and leaving him and slow defence exposed week in week out.

 

[Andresito]

I agree with serghei on this. We can't afford to waste time and money on replacing Arthur when we will have to buy a third midfielder in addition to that.
Better keep Arthur, he's like Semedo, he's got his obvious strengths and weaknesses but you know what you get. These two rarely have the brainfart games like Raki, Busi and Alba where everything they do goes to shit.

Worst case, Arthur and Semedo can't make an offensive impact in a game. We can live with that for now.

 

[DonAK]

Frenkie and Arthur can work in the midfield if they have a true creative midfielder/attacking CM with them.

Busquets is done as far as I'm concerned.

Busquets, de Jong and Arthur is never going to work, and unfortunately that's what I think we'll see next season.

 

[JamDav1982]

I agree with serghei on this. We can't afford to waste time and money on replacing Arthur when we will have to buy a third midfielder in addition to that.
Better keep Arthur, he's like Semedo, he's got his obvious strengths and weaknesses. These two rarely have the brainfart games like Raki, Busi and Alba where everything they do goes to shit.

Worst case, Arthur and Semedo can't make an offensive impact in the game. We can live with that for now.

I dont think anyone is arguing for ditching Arthur as not good enough.

For me the idea that he is untouchable is wrong and he has a long way to go to be the player Barca need for next years.

 

[JamDav1982]

Frenkie and Arthur can work in the midfield if they have a true creative midfielder/attacking CM with them.

Busquets is done as far as I'm concerned.

Busquets, de Jong and Arthur is never going to work, and unfortunately that's what I think we'll see next season.

Busquets, FDJ and Arthur will never work if Busquets is the lone DM and Arthur and FDJ are posted wider of him to protect front three and full backs.

Busquets is a liability but if they insist he is untouchable there are surely better ways to set up this midfield and for me it would be pairing him with FDJ and Busi is the one who steps forward more when teams sit in.

 

[serghei]

I agree with serghei on this. We can't afford to waste time and money on replacing Arthur when we will have to buy a third midfielder in addition to that.
Better keep Arthur, he's like Semedo, he's got his obvious strengths and weaknesses but you know what you get. These two rarely have the brainfart games like Raki, Busi and Alba where everything they do goes to shit.

Worst case, Arthur and Semedo can't make an offensive impact in a game. We can live with that for now.

Exactly my point. We have clear issues that need fixing. Fix them first, then see how the team responds. Maybe we play better, maybe not. Rather than trying to fix 4 positions at once and doing jack shit, stick on 2 (starting box to box midfielder and forward/winger) and move on in 2021-2022 with the rest.

 

[Porque]

I'm with Serghei here. Arthur has a ton of upside that should be explored before thinking of selling him. Atleast another full season.

Were heading into a rare transfer market, one where there is going to be less money and more player trading.

The papers are linking everything and everyone to maintain eyeballs, but it does seem that Arthur, Semedo, Umtiti, Dembele, Coutinho (+Emerson) are on a list that seem will be most equitable to other clubs.

There's no smoke without fire and these players are repeatedly coming up.

Its fine to study what we can get and see who's going to be available. But ultimately each and everyone will need a direct replacement, as well as also enhancements.

Rakitic, Vidal, Busquets are all the midfielders that should be on the table before Arthur.

I can see Short term Mou being interested in two of those (if were dead set on Ndombele and see him as a market opportunity).

 

[serghei]

Rakitic, Vidal, Busquets are all the midfielders that should be on the table before Arthur.

The problem is Semedo and Arthur are going to bring in serious money, that is why their name is thrown around. Rakitic, Busi, and Vidal aren't. In before these guys trade valuable young players to fund their stupid galactico-type signings who got us in this mess in the first place.

 

[khaled_a_d]

There's a prevailing argument that FDJ as a single pivot wouldn't work because he isn't Busi in some regards enough for it to work.

But to be fair do we really need a exact 1:1 Busi replacement? in that lone Pivot role. Honestly, I would be happy with someone like FDJ there. Someone who is not only good on the ball but also very athletic on and off the ball and I have no doubt if FDJ did get a run in that role he would improve dramatically there.

I'm one of those guys now that this team doesn't need exact clones of certain players, but ones who are still really gifted enough to replace the likes of Alves, Iniesta,Xavi, Messi, Busi etc and are willing to work hard to do so. Mascherano despite the growing pains from transitioning from DM to CB, did a really good job filling the gap Puyol left behind for the years he's been here.

I agree that we don't need to replace players with exact copy of them. Iniesta wasn't same type as Deco when he replaced him in midfield, Raki wasn't same type as Xavi and Busquets was totally different than Yaya who himself was different than Edmilson.
But we also need to be open about positions, if we clearly identify FDJ as the player to build midfield around and he is sort of 2nd DM in 4231 for example, I would go for it.
I think he is more of DM, but can't say I am 100% sure about it tbh.

A Vidal-esque player. Arthur can coexist with De Jong. You need 2/3 players in midfield to be very good technically with passing. Our problems is with movement in attack not in midfield. If you have very low movement in attack and static, old players, it's impossible for the midfield to work well, because there are very few options in build-up. It's one of the staples of efficient possession football. To have proper ball circulation in midfield you need attackers who move off the ball.

I said it early in the season that if we swapped our attack with Liverpool's we will ve immediately the best team on the planet.

But we don't have that attack, so we can discuss based on 2 scenarios:
1-Replacing our attack or at least 2 of them with players who run and defend.
2-Assuming we have that type of attack for another couple of years.

In regards to 1st scenario, I can see Arthur and FDJ coexisting together, I am still not sure about Arthur and I think he will have a Yaya type of future here. He will start until someone younger come and replace him. May be if Moriba was an early bloomer he will do the trick or may be someone else we will find. But midfield will need a more creative player. Arthur wasn't a creative passer in Brazil either tbh, even his highlights at Gremio was underwhelming when it came to his passing and vision and we will need someone like Thiago to play the creative role.

In 2nd scenario we have a problem. The truth is midfielders are asked to be baby sitters for our attack off the ball.
Rakitic Barca career was destroyed by that set up. IMO he was one of the most underrated Barca players because Messi moved to central and he became scapgoat of our problems. Thing is when FDJ played as CM for either EV or Setien he became 2nd coming of Rakitic and not the player everyone is hoping.
We will need in that case all 3 midfielders to be athletic and can run their ass off, like FDJ and 2 young Vidal type of midfielders. In this case I don't see Arthur fitting that much.

But 2 important thinks to take note of:
-You are making a strong point regarding we need to stop trying to replace playyers who aren't priorities.
-At same time, board see things we don't see -despite being stupid- and as someone mentioned if they thing his injuries will halt him or that he isn't discipline enough then it is better to sell him early before we have another Dembele/Umtiti type of situation

 

[xXKonan]

With FDJ I thought maybe he can evolve into an 8 in the vein of someone like Iniesta, but after what we have seen this season especially in the last few games before everything got shut down, he just seemed so uncomfortable and not really in the game. I think part of it could be being tasked with seeing less of the ball and the off the ball movement up top not being good enough but also just him being uncomfortable.

He would thrive in a double pivot as he did at Ajax but I don't think we will see us playing a double pivot anytime soon. I would try him out as a lone Pivot but the worrying part is Busi being further untouchable under Setien even though his best days are behind him.

Really shitty situation we are in that could be fixed but I just can't see it at the moment.

 

[serghei]

I said it early in the season that if we swapped our attack with Liverpool's we will ve immediately the best team on the planet.

But we don't have that attack, so we can discuss based on 2 scenarios:
1-Replacing our attack or at least 2 of them with players who run and defend.
2-Assuming we have that type of attack for another couple of years.

In regards to 1st scenario, I can see Arthur and FDJ coexisting together, I am still not sure about Arthur and I think he will have a Yaya type of future here. He will start until someone younger come and replace him. May be if Moriba was an early bloomer he will do the trick or may be someone else we will find. But midfield will need a more creative player. Arthur wasn't a creative passer in Brazil either tbh, even his highlights at Gremio was underwhelming when it came to his passing and vision and we will need someone like Thiago to play the creative role.

In 2nd scenario we have a problem. The truth is midfielders are asked to be baby sitters for our attack off the ball.
Rakitic Barca career was destroyed by that set up. IMO he was one of the most underrated Barca players because Messi moved to central and he became scapgoat of our problems. Thing is when FDJ played as CM for either EV or Setien he became 2nd coming of Rakitic and not the player everyone is hoping.
We will need in that case all 3 midfielders to be athletic and can run their ass off, like FDJ and 2 young Vidal type of midfielders. In this case I don't see Arthur fitting that much.

But 2 important thinks to take note of:
-You are making a strong point regarding we need to stop trying to replace playyers who aren't priorities.
-At same time, board see things we don't see -despite being stupid- and as someone mentioned if they thing his injuries will halt him or that he isn't discipline enough then it is better to sell him early before we have another Dembele/Umtiti type of situation

2 is not feasible. Babysitting for attackers is so 90s and early 00s. Because you meet teams in Europe where 11 players work their ass off and smother you with intensity, and what comes of it is matches like Roma, or Liverpool, or PSG, or Juventus away. Basically every big away game in CL in like the last 3-4 years. Even against Chelsea we miraculously escaped a bad loss (Willian could've had a hattrick if I remember correctly) by 2-3 goals margin. If the attack doesn't work to help the midfield, any midfield will surrender against teams where everyone works harder and runs more than you. It is a certainty of 2020 football if you will.

The only way forward is by ditching the galactico mentality and stop making excuses for star players. Buying legs to compensate for the lack of legs in attack is such compromise that is past its expiration date. We need to go back to the basics. Last season was the swan song for the veteran core and they failed. It wasn't to be.

Board see things we don't see. But they have no credibility. Credibility goes hand in hand with trust from the fans. If the fans believe they know what they are doing, they will have faith in their decision. I'm convinced they are mediocre managers, which is why this argument does little for me.

 

[Riordon]

I liked Ndombele a lot when he was at Lyon and have seen some promising sings from him with Tottenham, he is for sure a more creative passer than Arthur and Frenkie. But one of my main issues with Arthur is his lack of stamina and intensity and Ndombele has the same issues. He is not the psychical b2b midfielder Sport portrayed him as. No Pjanic either, thanks. This should be a warning for Arthur though; that playing for such a big club like Barca requires discipline, you can maybe get away with the partying if you are Neymar but Arthur should be more serious about his carrier.

I have followed Tonali this season though and he is super interesting, much more than Camavinga. Long balls, line breaking passes, ball over the top, can break lines through dribbles, I like the Alonso comparison, I see some Verratti also though.

 

[DonAndres]

I've said it before, but I think we need to visit the idea of Griezmann playing in midfield. Almost every other team gives way to build their team around the strengths of new signings except for us. We insist on handcuffing them in roles they are historically the least comfortable. Griezmann at LW, FDJ almost playing like an AM, Ansu was constantly shoved to RW at first too.

Griezmann literally won Golden Boot and Golden Ball at the Euros with France, then won Silver Boot and 3rd place in Golden Ball at the WC 2018. The connection? He was playing in the #10 role in a 4-2-3-1 for France. He's not a winger that burns his man on the flank, and he's not a 9 that consistently plays with his back to goal. He thrives in the central areas combining with players and making high IQ plays with technique. His best scoring also comes from being creating space to shoot around the edge of the box. The biggest reason Griezmann was top 5 in Balon voting in 2 different years was his attacking IQ and ability to generate a great amount of offense using 1-2's. Only Messi and Neymar are better at this skill.

FDJ as well, did his best work for Ajax in the CL and Netherlands over the past 2 years playing as a regista, usually in a double pivot. At Barca he spends most of his time with his back to the goal acting like an off ball runner into spaces, when he was literally playing the opposite role in his breakout year. He is strongest as the guy who starts the play from the base, uses his field vision and IQ to build it forward from the back and then continuing to run forward in support as the attack gains momentum.

He thrived next to runners like Van de Beek, Wijnaldum, etc. Even in the few appearances early in the season where he played at the pivot, he looked incredible playing behind runners like Roberto/Ale?a. At Barca he's been absolutely abused and misused as something that he's not. Not every player with nice footwork and touch is an 'Iniesta' and that is an idiotic assumption that the directors have continued to make. Trying to turn players like Coutinho and FDJ into Iniesta when literally neither of them fit in that role.

The simple solution is to shift to a 4-2-3-1 where both of these guys are strongest (and Messi/Suarez still get to play essentially the same role). I was always against a double pivot for a number of years, because it was a recipe for disaster with extremely static players like Busquets and Rakitic.

However, in recent years it has been proven that a new kind of 'dynamic double pivot' is the forward thinking meta of football. Neither holding player would be static and would have a large area of action and defensive/offensive coverage. This has been successful as shown by France with Kante/Pogba behind Griezmann, Liverpool with Fabinho/Henderson behind Wijnaldum, and Ajax last year with FDJ/Schone behind Van de Beek.

Barca needs to move forward, not backward and play to the strengths of this new generation. Right now I'd put FDJ/Vidal in a double pivot behind Griezmann. Suarez still at 9, Messi at RW, and I suppose Ansu/Dembele at LW. Our offense is what needs the most reinforcement. Arthur can keep developing and rotate with Vidal. Semedo has been really great and confident since the turn of 2020 and I wouldn't bet against him just yet, and I guess we have to live with Alba at LB for now.

Sadly enough I think the coach most likely to set us up in a similar fashion would be Koeman. Setien has looked like an idealistic clown trying to force an outdated and poorly set up 3-4-3, and even when he switched to 4-3-3 he still misuses FDJ and Griezmann. Xavi as well would be way too in love with Busquets to bench him and stick with 4-3-3. Koeman is very comfortable with a 4-2-3-1, knows how to use FDJ best, and might well make the correct decision with Griezmann. I don't think he's a great coach, but he's most likely to use the right setup at least.

 

[serghei]

With both Messi and Suarez playing, the double pivot would be severely overrun in transitions. You're talking about a 2 man midfield, with 4(!!) attackers.

Our defense would be even more shit than with the current midfield. Only player in that 4 attacking line who is a capable defender is Greizmann. Messi is non existent, Suarez moves like a bear, and Ansu Fati is a kid.

 

[DonAndres]

With both Messi and Suarez playing, the double pivot would be severely overrun in transitions. You're talking about a 2 man midfield, with 4(!!) attackers.

Our defense would be even more shit than with the current midfield. Only player in that 4 attacking line who is a capable defender is Greizmann. Messi is non existent, Suarez moves like a bear, and Ansu Fati is a kid.

The idea that a double pivot crumbles under transition is based on the old iterations where the 2 pivots were defensive statues with limited mobility. This consisted of older mold players like Xabi Alonso, Javi Martinez, Busquets (when he played in a pseudo double-pivot for Spain), Rakitic. Those double pivots are very different from the kind employed by France, Liverpool, Ajax, and even Bayern in recent years where both players cover a lot of ground and aren't static in their positioning.

It is an upgrade defensively. Suarez/Messi are starters no matter what, until we can reinforce the offense with transfers. Griezmann would be an advanced midfielder essentially in this scenario, and his workrate/pressing is high. The core of my proposal is that Busquets has to be benched. Though he has more defensive skill than his alternatives, his extreme lack of mobility and tendency to slow down our transition play outweighs that.

Assuming that Busi is dropped, Griezmann would be a 3rd and most advanced midfielder. He has more workrate and a better defensive output than his alternatives, Arthur and even Rakitic (and this output is with Griezmann playing in offense).

As for the front 3, talent or experience makes essentially no difference in your ability to contribute defensively. All you need is energy and commitment to press. The likes of Ansu and Braithwaite do everything required defensively for their roles and there's no need for them to do more individually. But you're right, they aren't good enough players and we need reinforcement but we would need that regardless of formation. When it comes to a front 3 pressing, effort/commitment is more than good enough as there are diminishing returns for players wasting more energy to increase duel winning by a negligible amount. Unless you are truly an elite defensive dog up front like Firmino, there's a fairly low ceiling on defensive output for forwards.

And if that's really the main thing we are so caught up on, as in massively upgrading our front 3's pressure, then might as well go for Inaki Williams who never stops running. Only then would you be able to see 1 player be able to make up for Suarez/Messi in any sort of way. And he rarely scores goals. Basically, we are 100% stuck with having 2 useless forwards defensively and 1 good/adequate one. That is a constant, regardless of formation.