Messigician
Senior Member
This tbh you got the forum spot on
Arthur
- Thread starter Jair Ventura
- Start date
This tbh you got the forum spot on
DonAndres
Wild Man of Borneo
Not every player is like Messi/Xavi/Iniesta/Alves, or even FDJ for that matter. Those kinds of guys are impossible to suppress and hold their talent back too much. Most players need good coaches to get the best out of them and develop them early in their careers.
The fact is that Arthur has shown a truly great level in big games for Barca in his 1st season. He was great against Tottenham, Real Madrid, Lyon, United, Sevilla. He was amazing under Tite for Brazil at Copa America this summer. He literally had 1 season in Europe ffs and has a lot to show for it and is already a key player in an NT championship win.
There's no way to say that Arthur has been anything close to a bust in his time at Barca, even under Valverde. If he were playing under Pep or Klopp or even Ten Hag I'd imagine he'd be one of the most important players in their team and full of confidence/growth.
No club in Europe wants Rakitic, and yet if we were to put up Arthur for sale tomorrow there would likely be a bidding war for him from the very best clubs. He's a great player already with greater potential and if we were to get a coach that properly develops the FDJ-Arthur tandem we'd be a dominant team in Europe every year. And it doesn't just go for Arthur. Dembele, Semedo, Firpo, Todibo would all look much better in a coach that established a proper system and training dynamic in the team.
The fact is that Arthur has shown a truly great level in big games for Barca in his 1st season. He was great against Tottenham, Real Madrid, Lyon, United, Sevilla. He was amazing under Tite for Brazil at Copa America this summer. He literally had 1 season in Europe ffs and has a lot to show for it and is already a key player in an NT championship win.
There's no way to say that Arthur has been anything close to a bust in his time at Barca, even under Valverde. If he were playing under Pep or Klopp or even Ten Hag I'd imagine he'd be one of the most important players in their team and full of confidence/growth.
No club in Europe wants Rakitic, and yet if we were to put up Arthur for sale tomorrow there would likely be a bidding war for him from the very best clubs. He's a great player already with greater potential and if we were to get a coach that properly develops the FDJ-Arthur tandem we'd be a dominant team in Europe every year. And it doesn't just go for Arthur. Dembele, Semedo, Firpo, Todibo would all look much better in a coach that established a proper system and training dynamic in the team.
xXKonan
Senior Member
He put up some excellent performances against some good teams and was unlucky with the muscle injuries he had, bother otherwise he had a good debut season.
Still amazes me people still take BBZ's word when it comes to Arthur. He straight up hated him before he even kicked a ball for us because he was "Popular" Now he just hates him and tries to deflect blame onto Arthur when Rakitic is getting criticized.
Arthur has things to improve on but he is no means a fucking flop like some guys on here like BBZ is trying to push. He was our brightest spot in the Midfield last season while the likes of fucking Rakitic and Busi were playing like a bunch of cowards when we needed them the most.
Swear the day Rakitic leaves Busi takes a secondary role on this team I will celebrate.
Still amazes me people still take BBZ's word when it comes to Arthur. He straight up hated him before he even kicked a ball for us because he was "Popular" Now he just hates him and tries to deflect blame onto Arthur when Rakitic is getting criticized.
Arthur has things to improve on but he is no means a fucking flop like some guys on here like BBZ is trying to push. He was our brightest spot in the Midfield last season while the likes of fucking Rakitic and Busi were playing like a bunch of cowards when we needed them the most.
Swear the day Rakitic leaves Busi takes a secondary role on this team I will celebrate.
BBZ8800
Senior Member
Andres, look at the matches you mentioned.
Arthur looked good in wild matches when the opponents were running at him like crazy.
Now try to find matches against teams who weren't running at him, when he was good.
You can't.
Because for now that is his only trait.
You mention Copa America.
He played in 4231 without any attacking duties.
And opponents were running at him like kamikaze.
Anyway, a denial is still strong.
But look at a sample for now:
1. Gremio, playing in 4231
Good in press resistance and recycling possession and slowing down the play.
Useless in attack.
2. Brasilian NT team. The same.
Plays as a double pivot in 4231.
Good in press resistance.
Mostly useless in attack.
3. Barca last season.
Good against wild teams.
Subbed off every time against teams who sit deep.
4. Played a first match with Frenkie. They looked incompatible.
You guys suffered for too long watching guys like Raki, Gomes, Arda, Paulinho.
And now when someone like Arthur is offering hints of TikiTaka, you have lost your mind.
Anyway, I have a feeling that Frenkie won't like him too much.
He said a few times that he needs players with lots of movement.
But vertical movement.
At Gremio, Brasilian Nt and Barca, Arthur has never shown pace, vertical movement or even through balls, attacking 1-2s etc.
Arthur has shown all traits for: we have the ball and now we will keep it for 90 minutes, without taking any risks.
Anyway, if you were a coach.
And from what you have seen from our team, where would you play Frenkie and Arthur?
If Frenkie is a pivot and Arthur Cm, Frenkie will be pissed.
1. Arthur won't move vertically, so Frenkie will have less passing options
2. Plus, Arthur will instinctively occupy Frenkie's area (a pivot), like today.
If Arthur is a pivot, then you are killing Frenkie with playing him as a Cm.
Arthur's lack of vertical movement won't be a problem then.
But then you have a slowish and somewhat average defender as a lone pivot in Arthur.
So, the best option is Frenkie as a pivot.
And Arthur as a CM.
But again, how will you solve a lack of Arthur's pace, a lack of attacking runs (which Alena and Roberto had today) and his lack to attempt more risky, fast through balls.
Not to mention that Frenkie looks like a type who thrives more in a fast paced, risky fooball like in Ajax and Liverpool.
While Arthur looks like a perfect player for slow, possession, safe passing football with a lowest amount of risks.
I know that on paper, Frenkie-Arthur duo sounds perfect.
And if they would work, we would be set for 10 years.
So, of course that guys are dreaming about it.
But when you remove desires, Frenkie and Arthur don't look compatible at all.
They occupy the same area. They both like to collect the ball around our box and move it forward for other two players. Except, when you have two of them, you have only 1 free guy left to pass him a ball.
After this preseason, I would say that the best fits for Frenkie's style of play could be: Roberto, Alena, Puig, Coutinho and maybe Rafinha.
Bad fits for Frenkie (slow and bad vertical movement): Busi, Raki, Arthur.
** Konan, you probably thought that I hated Dembele for no reason.
I hated him because he was dumb and had deadly flaws.
About Arthur...
Why am I not shitting now on Frenkie, yet I mentioned Arthur's pace, bad defending, lack of forward passes and poor stamina since his preseason last year.
In this period last year, I already had 10s of bad posts about Arthur.
I don't have those for Frenkie after seeing him here because he is fantastic.
So maybe it is not about hate, but about flaws.
Arthur looked good in wild matches when the opponents were running at him like crazy.
Now try to find matches against teams who weren't running at him, when he was good.
You can't.
Because for now that is his only trait.
You mention Copa America.
He played in 4231 without any attacking duties.
And opponents were running at him like kamikaze.
Anyway, a denial is still strong.
But look at a sample for now:
1. Gremio, playing in 4231
Good in press resistance and recycling possession and slowing down the play.
Useless in attack.
2. Brasilian NT team. The same.
Plays as a double pivot in 4231.
Good in press resistance.
Mostly useless in attack.
3. Barca last season.
Good against wild teams.
Subbed off every time against teams who sit deep.
4. Played a first match with Frenkie. They looked incompatible.
You guys suffered for too long watching guys like Raki, Gomes, Arda, Paulinho.
And now when someone like Arthur is offering hints of TikiTaka, you have lost your mind.
Anyway, I have a feeling that Frenkie won't like him too much.
He said a few times that he needs players with lots of movement.
But vertical movement.
At Gremio, Brasilian Nt and Barca, Arthur has never shown pace, vertical movement or even through balls, attacking 1-2s etc.
Arthur has shown all traits for: we have the ball and now we will keep it for 90 minutes, without taking any risks.
Anyway, if you were a coach.
And from what you have seen from our team, where would you play Frenkie and Arthur?
If Frenkie is a pivot and Arthur Cm, Frenkie will be pissed.
1. Arthur won't move vertically, so Frenkie will have less passing options
2. Plus, Arthur will instinctively occupy Frenkie's area (a pivot), like today.
If Arthur is a pivot, then you are killing Frenkie with playing him as a Cm.
Arthur's lack of vertical movement won't be a problem then.
But then you have a slowish and somewhat average defender as a lone pivot in Arthur.
So, the best option is Frenkie as a pivot.
And Arthur as a CM.
But again, how will you solve a lack of Arthur's pace, a lack of attacking runs (which Alena and Roberto had today) and his lack to attempt more risky, fast through balls.
Not to mention that Frenkie looks like a type who thrives more in a fast paced, risky fooball like in Ajax and Liverpool.
While Arthur looks like a perfect player for slow, possession, safe passing football with a lowest amount of risks.
I know that on paper, Frenkie-Arthur duo sounds perfect.
And if they would work, we would be set for 10 years.
So, of course that guys are dreaming about it.
But when you remove desires, Frenkie and Arthur don't look compatible at all.
They occupy the same area. They both like to collect the ball around our box and move it forward for other two players. Except, when you have two of them, you have only 1 free guy left to pass him a ball.
After this preseason, I would say that the best fits for Frenkie's style of play could be: Roberto, Alena, Puig, Coutinho and maybe Rafinha.
Bad fits for Frenkie (slow and bad vertical movement): Busi, Raki, Arthur.
** Konan, you probably thought that I hated Dembele for no reason.
I hated him because he was dumb and had deadly flaws.
About Arthur...
Why am I not shitting now on Frenkie, yet I mentioned Arthur's pace, bad defending, lack of forward passes and poor stamina since his preseason last year.
In this period last year, I already had 10s of bad posts about Arthur.
I don't have those for Frenkie after seeing him here because he is fantastic.
So maybe it is not about hate, but about flaws.
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Marshall D Teach
Active member
Those are literally the only matches we actually struggle in. His performances against La Liga cannon fodder are irrelevant because we beat them anyway. He can honestly stink up the place all he wants in those matches if he helps us not get embarassed in the CL knockout rounds.
This, they still living in the past and day dreaming it will revive again and other teams start being bums that can't have a game plan for this old tiki taka 😂
Vilarrubi
New member
But.... but.... but....... he can’t score 4 goals in La Liga.... even though my favourite phrase was “Cheat code Messi” for La Liga.
You say he plays well under pressure like its a deadly disease that he needs to be rid off.
We've been struggling, utterly faltering, against "Kamikaze" midfields for the past few years in case you've failed to notice in your advanced age.
Maybe if Arthur had started at Anfield, we wouldn't have been slapped six ways from Sunday in the midfield cause our "workhorses" were shitting the bed.
Also since you bring up Arthur and Frenkie in the same setup, there can be a double pivot with someone like Coutinho (I'm passed the point where I believe we'll be able to offload him), and Messi providing the attacking threats from advanced midfield positons with our pivots moving the ball in a fast transition build up (one thing severely lacking in Busi Rakitic duo).
Potroh
New member
Hehehe... The monseigneur of objectivity is in good form again.
I just wonder what is he writing when in bad form...
But his tendencies are rock solid, now that he invented the "horizontal move" new agenda, we can expect it to be mentioned at least 100 times in near future.
Otherwise the equation is quite simple, Arthur has to play on the right, FDJ on the left, so the only question is who can be the pivot.
But EV will screw it up again, don't be naive and have some high hopes.
The only problem is that poor Rakitic has really no place in the equation anymore, which is obvious now, but the real problem WAS that it was quite obvious a year ago, when the idiotic club and mainly EV who "needed" him, did NOT sell him for 90 million bucks...
That was the silliest mistake a club could make.
Now he wants to stay and nobody wants him anymore. Great planning...
FinBarcelonafan
Well-known member
Bingo. We are going to beat the small Spanish clubs anyways m
BBZ8800
Senior Member
It is not about Rakitic.
For me, Arthur is the worse player in our team out of our 8 midfielders in terms of attacking.
Everyone is better than him:
Cou
Raki
Alena
Puig
Vidal
Roberto
Rafinha
Frenkie
Also, if Raki and Busi are grannies, imo, Arthur is closest to them in terms of playing an oldfashioned, slow, too safe granny football.
Frenkie, Roberto, Alena and Puig are the guys who play more modern type of football.
And guys line Ndombele, Donny Van Der Beek etc.
Further, we are Barca, and we play attacking football.
And since this is 2019/2020, the future of attacking football will be a faster version of an attacking football.
Look at even Pep's midfielders: David Silva, De Bruyne, Bernardo Silva.
Everyone are faster than Arthur.
Everyone can both play possession, resist pressure and play attack (unlike Arthur).
Arthur has some Xavi's traits.
But the sad thing is: only some traits, which is way too little for 2020'.
Further, basics of psychology will tell you that a 23 years old player can't change his natural instincts too much.
And Arthur's natural footballing instincts are:
1. avoid a pressure
2. keep the ball no matter what
3. don't take risks
4. don't attack
Add to that he is quite slow, makes zero vertical runs and is useless in attack almost as equally as Semedo, and Houston, we have a problem.
Even worse, with Frenkie here, who will become our new Xavi, our brain, our leader, our everything.
And in the future, our team and midfield will be built around Frenkie, in terms:
= to get the best out of him
= to surround him with players with whom he will thrive
The same what Ajax and Dutch NT coaches made.
Or the same what we did with Messi.
If a player is THAT GOOD, you will do everything to maximize his strengths.
Now, Frenkie is a perfect example of a modern, fast paced, vertical, risky football.
Arthur is an example of a slow, sterile, too safe, (too) possession based football from 10-15 years ago.
Now, except that Arthur and Frenkie BOTH have good press resistance, they are actually totally opposite worlds in terms of football.
Frenkie wasts pace, through balls, deep runs and vertical movement.
Arthur wants calma calma type of play with 80% possession and slow, safe build up.
Add to this that they play on a same position, that Arthur will get instinctively in Frenkie's area.
And again, Arthur is 23 and can't change his natural instincts too much.
Till this preseason, I didn't have much hope in Alena and Puig.
But now after seeing Frenkie and realizing how HE IS THE MAN, how he will be our brain and our future, now I have opened the doors to even Alena and Puig.
Because they are younger and play a more modern type of faster and riskier football than a granny Arthur.
Roberto is here also, surely.
Anyway, from now on people will pay more attention to:
1. Arthur's defending
2. Arthur's pace
3. Arthur's forward passes
4. Arthur's play in the attacking third
5. Arthur's vertical movement, since Frenkie needs that type of teammates
When you sum it all, from what I have seen from Arthur in his career till now and what we have seen from Frenkie, and when you add modern tendencies like Klopp's and Pep's where everyone run and attack like crazy, I really don't have too much faith in Arthur.
And this is not even about Raki.
Between Raki and Arthur, I would still rather play Raki.
But if we want a fast, modern football, I have no problems in playing without granny-football players like Busi, Raki and also ARTHUR.
Now, try to look at this video and player's natural movement, natural instincts.
And how much time they dwell on the ball:
Alena, Puig and Arthur.
Even on this video, Alena and Puig look like guys from the future, while Arthur looks like a player from Seria A from 1998'.
Look at where Alena and Puig are running after they make a pass.
And look at how Arthur stands and isn't interested in forward movement once when he passes the ball (NOT ONLY because he is a pivot. He does that on every position).
Before that, you can also check at Arthur's granny slow football and movement from yesterday also:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bj0NSVSbBfs
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Arthur worked well in Brazil because he had a strong defensive workhorse next to him in Casemiro and three attacking midfielders ahead of him to make forward runs and get goals/assists.
At Barca I think he’d work in a three man midfield with a box to box player next to him making forward runs and doing a lot of pressing for him, de Jong would be the pivot doing a lot of defensive work and also helping control the midfield. He’d also have the front three making runs and getting goals/assists.
A guy like Arthur can work in midfield in modern football but it’s about getting the balance right next to him.
At Barca I think he’d work in a three man midfield with a box to box player next to him making forward runs and doing a lot of pressing for him, de Jong would be the pivot doing a lot of defensive work and also helping control the midfield. He’d also have the front three making runs and getting goals/assists.
A guy like Arthur can work in midfield in modern football but it’s about getting the balance right next to him.
BBZ8800
Senior Member
Still, imo, our fans are singing songs about Arthur, yet look at Frenkie's teammates from Ajax.
Stats from a CL last season.
Ajax's midfield trio: Van Der Beek, Frenkie, Schone vs Arthur:
Shots on goal in a CL:
1,8 Donny
1,5 Schone
0,5 Frenkie
0,0 Arthur
Key passes:
1,6 Schone
1,4 Donny
0,8 Frenkie
0,7 Arthur
Dribbles:
1,0 Donny
1,0 Frenkie
0,4 Schone
0,4 Arthur
Interceptions:
1,7 Frenkie
1,5 Schone
1,2 Donny
0,2 Arthur
Tackles:
2,5 Frenkie
2,2 Donny
2,0 Schone
1,3 Arthur
Clearances:
1,7 Frenkie
1,2 Schone
0,7 Donny
0,3 Arthur
As always, Arthur is the worst in every single stat, compared to midfielder's from Ajax.
Now, what has made Liverpool and Ajax great in the last season:
1. all 6 attackers and midfielders were fast (except Schone)
2. all 6 players were good in attack
3. all 6 players were good in playmaking skills
4. all 6 players were good in defense
5. all 6 players were moving off the ball, and moving in vertical direction, allowing fast build up and deadly counters
Now, if:
Frenkie from Ajax would be Frenkie at Barca=a pivot.
Then Schone from Ajax, a guy good in defense who is also good in midfield and attack=is not Arthur since he sucks in defending and attacking. Roberto is closer to Schone.
Donny from Ajax is someone like Coutinho (with improved defending, pace, workrate) or Alena/Puig.
In a modern football, all midfielders and attackers need to be allrounders and good in everything.
Yet, we are stuck in 2000' when it was ok to excel in one skill and be average in others.
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