Arthur

[Zidane82]

Arthur is nothing like Kroos, the latter is way better offensively.
We know nothing about De Jong, how he can accommodate to another team, these hopes are just wishful thinking. Specially compared to Modric.
Casemiro although being tough and often very defensive, is capable of scoring more goals - including headers - in a week, compared to the lifetime of goals by Busquets.

Please never say Casemiro in the same sentence as Busquets..

 

[Hamzah]

Arthur is nothing like Kroos, the latter is way better offensively.
We know nothing about De Jong, how he can accommodate to another team, these hopes are just wishful thinking. Specially compared to Modric.
Casemiro although being tough and often very defensive, is capable of scoring more goals - including headers - in a week, compared to the lifetime of goals by Busquets.

Obviously I am not talking about clones, but the types of player they are and the roles they fill to create a balanced midfield. Arthur is a ball circulating midfielder like Kroos, and mainly holds his position in the middle. de Jong can drive forward with the ball and makes forward runs while being defensively solid like Modric.

I wasn’t even comparing Casemiro to Busquets, the whole point of that paragraph was that Arthur and de Jong need the right type of dm, a strong physical ball winner (like Casemiro) to complement them and create a balanced midfield.

 

[Potroh]

Please never say Casemiro in the same sentence as Busquets..

Why not if folks sort of try to compare them?
Otherwise I am a very very proud owner of a Hermes-2000 typewriter, just don't use it anymore...

 

[serghei]

@BBZ
I often agree with your points, people do tend to get overexcited for every young player that comes, but this is purely on coach.
Yes, we can talk about Arthur, is he the best potential ever or has flaws, Dembele, Coutinho for god sake....but we lost, NO, got destroyed by likes of Milner, Handerson and Origano in attack! Sorry, but imagine this guys in Barca?

Our midfield is not balanced with Raki and Busi in it - they are slow and leave a lot of space in covering. They can play in 5 man midfield, they would struggle in 4, let alone in 3. That's why when we have a perfect game, our full backs add width and basically we have 5 in midfield, but when they are pushed we are screwed.
But who insists on this slow midfield?
I saw a lot of scared players that night in Liverpool, yes, we can try to buy only winners but at the end of the day general is responsible for the moral as well.

We are currently talking about buying De jong (already here), De Light, Griezman and so on, sorry but once again we got owned by ORIGATO!!!??
So, we can talk about Arthur, Alena and so on but ONLY whe we have competant coach who trully learns from mistakes, who learns from the games as well and who knows that we need a change in our approach, mental and tactical.
As long as we have a scared coward who thinks slow sideways, without movement, passing is good enough we will have Liverpool or Romas nights in CL no matter the names in our squad.

The ship has sailed a long time ago for BBZ.

[MENTION=2258]Hamzah[/MENTION],

We have De Jong + Arthur, and we need a strong aggressive box to box player like a younger Arthuro Vidal. Ndombele would be a top fit. So would be Kante or Wijnaaldum.

Best place for box to box players who are strong and athletic are Premier League and Ligue 1, the two most physical leagues out there with a lot of pace and end to end action.

 

[Zidane82]

The ship has sailed a long time ago for BBZ.

[MENTION=2258]Hamzah[/MENTION],

We have De Jong + Arthur, and we need a strong aggressive box to box player like a younger Arthuro Vidal. Ndombele would be a top fit. So would be Kante or Wijnaaldum.

Best place for box to box players who are strong and athletic are Premier League and Ligue 1, the two most physical leagues out there with a lot of pace and end to end action.

Maybe swapping Coutinho for Liverpool’s Fabinho would appease all parties ?

Then L Suarez for Firmino and we’re in dreamland ( De Ligt as well obviously)

Oh and Rakitic for two or three training manikins ..

 

[Givenchy]

Maybe swapping Coutinho for Liverpool’s Fabinho would appease all parties ?

Then L Suarez for Firmino and we’re in dreamland ( De Ligt as well obviously)

Oh and Rakitic for two or three training manikins ..

im sure the money men at Liverpool do actually watch football but nice try

 

[BBZ8800]

[MENTION=23089]Arizona Scott[/MENTION] and [MENTION=16942]BBZ8800[/MENTION] are mind numbingly off the mark claiming that any stats have Rakitic as the #1 or #2 midfielder in the squad. Fuck your sofascore or Whoscored ratings lol. Do you believe that Adnan Januzaj is better than Modric? Or the likes of Rochina/Marc Roca/etc. are better than Arturo Vidal?

If that's the level of insight you bring to this forum, you should honestly gtfo. If I were moderator I'd make it a bannable offense to pollute the forum with such low level content.

I love when you are "dangerous" and you swear, yet you want only choirboys in your Barca's team. Pure gold.
** Also, you were quite naughty. Not a word about interceptions, where Arthur is an absolute disgrace.

You are talking about bans, yet, for me, you are a textbook example of what I call "Pepistas".
Guys who were were born let's say in between 1995 and 2002, and who grew up with Pep's football in their formative years, and for them more or less nothing exists as Pep's football.

From how I remember your posts in the last 5 years, your every post is beyond predictable and only has 1 factor: would Pep have done it that way?

For example:
Rakitic=shit. Pep would not play him.
Paulinho=shit. Pep would not play him.
Rabiot=shit. Pep would not play him.
Denis=you were writing songs about him in the beginning because he looked like Pep's type of a player.
Samper=you were writing songs
Oliver Tores=a new Xavi. Pep would play him.
Alena=songs. Pep would maybe use him.
I don't remember have I ever seen a post of yours where you moved away from your "tunnel vision" and suggested anything different than what Pep was doing.
As if your brain said: we are at 100% now, no need to evolve anymore. We have everything we need in Pep's football.

You never wanted a taller Cf for headers, you never wanted more strength, you never wanted more crosses or different attacking options, you never wanted more fighters in a team.
Since, why would we need any of those? Since in your formative years regarding football, football (Pep) was played without any of those.
And you can't appreciate any of those, or think outside of a box. And your box is Pep.

But let's not waste time with young angry Pepistas, whatever anyone you'll say, you'll always just get back to Pep's football from 2008-2012 as an answer for everything.
I can't live in that dreamy world, sorry.

You guys are missing the point. A “pure” tiki taka team like Pep’s Barcelona is extremely hard to replicate, without the likes of Xavi, Iniesta, Messi, Alves all in their primes. That pure tiki taka team was so good it could play one type of football and win. In most circumstances, a team will need a variety of ways of playing and have the ability to adapt to the opponent.

The Madrid team of recent years was technical, of course you need technical quality, but they had other aspects to them and weren’t a pure tiki taka team in the mould of Pep’s Barcelona. They could play the wings, counter, compete in physical battles, score from set plays, even bus park. The last time Barca won was not in a pure tiki taka style either. 2015 Barca could play counters and compete physically.

I want Barcelona to be able to play with posession as a base, because it is the best for winning league titles and gives your team an identity to build around, but to have other aspects to their play. The ability to play the wings if needed, counter when needed, have players that can help compete physically, score from set pieces etc. It’s a style that’s replicable and proven to win. Think Rijkaard’s Barca or Lucho’s Barca in his first one and a half seasons.

About Arthur, he is a good young talent that can be a starter at Barca, but he needs to be surrounded with players that can make up for his weak areas. In fact if you compare the emerging Barca midfield to the successful Madrid team, Arthur is like Kroos, de Jong is like Modric. Now those two need a player like Casemiro behind them to provide physicality and defensive skills, Busquets with those two is just a bad fit imo.

Hallelujah

Also, I have a problem where a lot of fans are thinking: Barca equals Pep's football.
No.

Barca's main idea was always an attacking, possession based football.
But each coach has his own ideas, inside of those basic ideas.

For example, in numbers, I would say that Van Gaal or Rijkaard had:
60% of possession
20% of counters
20% of crosses

Plus, we were also good in set pieces (headers after corners) and we were trying longshots.
So, possession and technical football was always our core, but we also had several other attacking options.
We were not predictable and one dimensional.

And then Pep came and brought our possession game to a perfection, which is true, but totally killed all other aspects of football.
Pep's football:
Possession 90%
Counters 10%
Crosses 0%
Longshots (except Messi):0%
Headers after corners and set pieces: 0%

This is only about attacking weapons.
Pep did the same in terms of players profiles.
Rijkaard was also a CDM, the same as Pep. And Rijkaard's pivots were Davids, Motta, Edmilson, Marquez, Van Bommel, Yaya.
They were all quite strong, and only Yaya was more attacking. And imo, he was the worst pivot out of all these guys for us.
Van Gaal, Rijkaard and other coaches had Kluivert, Giovani and different type of classical 9s.
Pep had Zlatan and Etoo, sold them and moved to a false 9 Messi and Villa/Alexis.
So, just like in attacking weapons: Pep moved to only type of players (light, short technical midfielders and attackers) and KILLED all other options.

People will say: well it worked awesome.
Well, true.
But he had Messi and Mr. TikiTaka himself, Xavi.
Plus, the world was shocked at first with his football and teams didn't know how to defend.
When Xavi declined, both Barca and Spain started to have crappy international results.
And Pep alone, without Messi and Xavi, didn't win a CL in the next 6 attempts.

Anyway, since there was a talk about Real Madrid on previous pages, imo, RM who won 4 CLs in the last 6 years was way closer to Rijkaard's football than to Pep's.
Again, RM had possession, direct football, crosses from an open play, corners/crosses/headers, some long range drives.
Pep had: possession. The end of story.
Madrid had a classical pivot Casemiro, Pep had only 3 light midfielders.
Pep had short attackers who move a lot and can play only on the ground.
RM had CR7 and Benzema for both feet and header goals.

Not to mention that Rijkaard's Barca and RM had some thugs, fighters, warriors.
While Pep said fuck you to any guy who is not a yes man and who actually had some balls like: Zlatan (fuck you), Etoo (fuck you), Mandzukic (fuck you).
And Pep surrounded himself with a bunch of yes man choirboys. I have a theory that needs to be a leader and everyone listening/adoring him.
That is fine to some extent. But in matches and in the days when going gets tough, those schoolboys are a pure shit and can't handle pressure.

So, for me, Pep has built a team which was on one hand: perfect.
And on the other hand: a pure shit and extremely one dimensional and limited (no fighters, no different attacking options, all players look like clones of eachother).

When I talk about a taller Cf, some height and muscles in midfield, some crosses, some fighters, I am not talking: abandoning Barca's style.
I am saying: we should abandon Pep's style which is quite limited in 2019 (and without prime Xavi-Iniesta-Messi).
Majority of things about which I am whining for years (height, muscles, some thugs, crosses, headers, counters, long range drives) is not turning Barca into Stoke, but turning Barca into a classical pre-Pep's Barca, aka Van Gaal's or Rijkaard's Barca.

For those who watched only Pep's football and think that Pep is Barca, a few videos to think about:
Barca in 2003/04, Rijkaard's first season. This was pre Etoo, Deco, Guily, Messi etc.
Look at how that team played: possession (Ronaldinho, Xavi), counters (lots of through balls for speedy attackers and wingers), crosses and lots of headers from an open play, headers after corners (Pep killed this one also), longshots:
** The key thing, look at a number of crosses and headers/or regular shots from an open play.
Pep totally abandoned crosses and every actions needs to be: passing the ball around the box till death (which we are still doing, in a way slower and worse way):
Also, look at a number of corners and goals.
Pep abandoned those and introduced those short corners and passing the all around the box again

Also, for younger guys who think that Busi is awesome and that we should stick to this kind of pivots, because Pep played with them...
This is how pivots looked in our team pre-Pep.

For example, Edgar Davids, lol:

Rijkaard, who was a pivot himself, picked him.
People would say today: he is shit. He is not press resistant, can't make those little turns, can't build the game from the back

Or another Dutch Mark Van Bommel, picked by Rijkaard.
An interesting thing is, in 5 Rijkaard's seasons, we won a CL ONLY in a season when Van Bommel played, due to Xavi's knee injury.
In all other seasons with light midfields, we were knocked out by English teams every single time.
Guys, be honest, if today we had Busi and Van Bommel, 95% of users would pick a mighty Busi, isn't it?
Busi and his football worked only with Xavi-Iniesta-Messi to save his ass and will work never again.

** They were not actually idiots who were only killing people during the match.
They were good footballers, but their main strength was not a passing game like Busi's, but actually like Casemiro's: fouls, stopping actions, stopping counters, arguing, bringing some aggression etc.
So, anyway, I don't want a team of 11 Iniestas.
I would like a few Iniestas, paired with a good old tall no9, and 1-2 Davids/Van Bommel and not 11 choirboys on a field.

** Also, for the end, Frenkie-Arthur doesn't make any sense. They are too similar, and Arthur is too weak in attacking.
If you want Pep's midfield:
Well, I don't even want to comment on that sense, since I don't want any copies of Pep's midfield (since it won't work without Xavi and Messi).
If you want Rijkaard's midfield with: a classical CDM, one Xavi and one Deco/Iniesta as a CAM:
Then if Frenkie is a CDM; we won't have a classical CDM who is more defensive and who is not venturing into attacks (we would be prone to counters).
So, if Frenkie is a pivot, we will never get the good old CDM.

And also, if Frenkie-Arthur are two CMs with let's say a true CDM like Ries or Todibo, then we would have a solid defense and physical presence.
But then we would be shit in attack. Since none out of Frenkie-Arthur is a CAM.

And for guys who will reply: but but but, none out Xavi-Iniesta were good goalscorers and we won under Pep.
Well, we had cheating codes named prime Messi.
When you have Messi, you can survive with a midfield who is just passing a ball around.
Arthur would be awesome in 2008-2012.
But in pre-Messi and post-Messi era, we always needed at least 1 playmaker who can score goals.
For example, I remember one interview with Rijkaard in 2004 when we bought Deco.
They asked him: why have you wanted him so badly?
Rijkaard replied: our playmaker is Ronaldinho.
And all opponents know that.
And when they heavily mark him with 2-3 players, we don't have any other options.
This is why I wanted ANOTHER ONE true playmaker, who will take responsibility when Ronaldinho will be heavily marked.
This is why Deco is playing on the right side of our midfield. Since, if 2 players will man-mark Ronaldinho on the left, there will be more free space for Deco on the right.

Anyway, imo, Xavi-Iniesta duo wouldn't be too lethal in Rijkaard's era without prime Messi since none of them is scoring enough.
Some people will laugh and say: lol, midfielders don't need to score.
Well, if you were born in Pep's era, then midfielders didn't have to score since we had Messi.
Without Messi, our team will probably turn into a current RM, where no one can score.

So, anyway, long term, I don't see how Frenkie and Arthur can coexist together.
ONLY if we'll find 3 new Ronaldinhos for attack to compensate for a lack of scoring and Arthur's lack of a creation.

But, I don't expect from majority of Pepistas to understand these problems.
They will just shake heads and say: you are an idiot. We should go back to Pep's basics and everything will be fine.

 

[Arnaez]

Do you just ignore the fact Xavi and Iniesta won everything on the national level for years? Last I checked Messi played for Argentina. Rijkaard was just a mediocre coach who failed most of his jobs and wasted a talented Barca side, 06-08 should've been successful years as well.

 

[Hamzah]

Rijkaard took over a team that hadn’t won in years and won back to back leagues and a champions league. Put some respect on his name.

About your first point, those are all time legends. Trying to win with such a pure style, especially in Europe, with more normal players is difficult. A team with a more varied style is easier to replicate and win with. Spain haven’t done anything since Xavi declined.

 

[Arizona Scott]

You guys are missing the point. A “pure” tiki taka team like Pep’s Barcelona is extremely hard to replicate, without the likes of Xavi, Iniesta, Messi, Alves all in their primes. That pure tiki taka team was so good it could play one type of football and win. In most circumstances, a team will need a variety of ways of playing and have the ability to adapt to the opponent.

The Madrid team of recent years was technical, of course you need technical quality, but they had other aspects to them and weren’t a pure tiki taka team in the mould of Pep’s Barcelona. They could play the wings, counter, compete in physical battles, score from set plays, even bus park. The last time Barca won was not in a pure tiki taka style either. 2015 Barca could play counters and compete physically.

I want Barcelona to be able to play with posession as a base, because it is the best for winning league titles and gives your team an identity to build around, but to have other aspects to their play. The ability to play the wings if needed, counter when needed, have players that can help compete physically, score from set pieces etc.

These are spot on observations. Unless you are a rare historical machine (and engine run by Xavi/Iniesta in their prime, among other brilliant players) you want some tactical flexibility and to not be entirely predictable. I am pretty hopeful on De Jong & Arthur being core pieces BTW however I a very skeptical that any of the veterans have enough in the tank, nor the Barca B folks or Alena, to round it out--really depends on how dynamic De Jong proves to be.

 

[Gaudi]

You guys are missing the point. A “pure” tiki taka team like Pep’s Barcelona is extremely hard to replicate, without the likes of Xavi, Iniesta, Messi, Alves all in their primes. That pure tiki taka team was so good it could play one type of football and win. In most circumstances, a team will need a variety of ways of playing and have the ability to adapt to the opponent.

The Madrid team of recent years was technical, of course you need technical quality, but they had other aspects to them and weren’t a pure tiki taka team in the mould of Pep’s Barcelona. They could play the wings, counter, compete in physical battles, score from set plays, even bus park. The last time Barca won was not in a pure tiki taka style either. 2015 Barca could play counters and compete physically.

I want Barcelona to be able to play with posession as a base, because it is the best for winning league titles and gives your team an identity to build around, but to have other aspects to their play. The ability to play the wings if needed, counter when needed, have players that can help compete physically, score from set pieces etc. It’s a style that’s replicable and proven to win. Think Rijkaard’s Barca or Lucho’s Barca in his first one and a half seasons.

About Arthur, he is a good young talent that can be a starter at Barca, but he needs to be surrounded with players that can make up for his weak areas. In fact if you compare the emerging Barca midfield to the successful Madrid team, Arthur is like Kroos, de Jong is like Modric. Now those two need a player like Casemiro behind them to provide physicality and defensive skills, Busquets with those two is just a bad fit imo.

That is why I want a coach who isn't typical Barca DNA, because they obviously all misinterpret what tici taca is!

It's fast one two, with 1 second and the ball and not possession just for sake of possession.

Or move away from that completely, fine, we can try it, but this mix of trying to replicate Xavi after Xavi is doing us harm

 

[aqua2nd]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">The dressing room is worried about Arthur. He weighs four kilos more than when he first arrived at Barcelona. [cat radio] <a href="https://t.co/eYWTUxc9oM">pic.twitter.com/eYWTUxc9oM</a></p>— barcacentre (@barcacentre) <a href="https://twitter.com/barcacentre/status/1130953158174355464?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 21, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

barcacentre? I rate their rumors on the same level of truth worthy as Dailymail
But it seems many people here are loyal fans of that page
And FYI they're spreading rumors that Neymar is looking for a move back to Barca

 

[MTL_Barca]

barcacentre? I rate their rumors on the same level of truth worthy as Dailymail
But it seems many people here are loyal fans of that page
And FYI they're spreading rumors that Neymar is looking for a move back to Barca

They don't post their own stuff, they just translate (sometimes not very good) and repeat information.

 

[khaled_a_d]

barcacentre? I rate their rumors on the same level of truth worthy as Dailymail
But it seems many people here are loyal fans of that page
And FYI they're spreading rumors that Neymar is looking for a move back to Barca

It's Cat Radio
And they just translate news and mentions the source

 

[serghei]

Man, you know things are chaotic at the club, when you hear all these rumors in which the source is 'the dressing room'.

The dressing room wants Neymar back. The dressing room is supporting Valverde. The dressing room is worried abour Arthur because he has a few kilos more. The dressing room said no to Griezmann. The dressing room does this, and that. And is for this and against that.

What the fuck is the technical staff for, if the dressing room is pulling all the strings? And I'm sure by the dressing room we mean the veterans, like Suarez, Busi, Rakitic, Pique and Messi. They manage Barcelona, not Valverde.

Let's just ask the dressing room how they want to play before every game. Sack the manager and let them run things.

Man we seriously need someone to put things in order. It's a travesty at the moment, 'led' by the biggest coward on the big stage of football.