7 - Philippe Coutinho - V1

clemente

New member
tbh I'd say Dembele is not only close to him in quality but in the same amatuer setup from EV, even being played at LW hes outperforming him..

EV does our players no favour atall but Coutinho needs to step it up. this is the same inconsistencies he showed at Liverpool

Really... Dembele close to Coutinho's quality?... I mean Dembele has a ceiling to maybe even be the best in the world dor one day but right now he literally can do nothing as good as Coutinho except his pace. And yes him performing on the wing better than Coutinho is a pace thing, Coutinho just isn't a winger and I don't think he wants to play there. And Klopp said he didn't fit Liverpools style and still was being played due to his talent and was on the comparison who is the best in the league between him/Hazard/KDB
 

xXKonan

Senior Member
Coutinho is obviously going to be the more elegant one out of the two as he's a more finished product while Dembele is much rougher in some aspects due to his age etc.

But we are seeing an interesting shift though. Coutinho was considered undroppable but now? not anymore it seems. Valverde seems to favor Dembele, despite the drama with him being late for training and some aspects being rougher than Coutinho.

Dembele was being played as an RWB vs Levante while Coutinho was on the bench for 81 mins. If this back in March of last season there was no way that would have happened as Coutinho would have likely started with Paulinho being pushed to RWB

But now? Valverde has a lot more trust in the kid and doesn't seem all that worried about Coutinho riding the bench.
 

clemente

New member
Coutinho is obviously going to be the more elegant one out of the two as he's a more finished product while Dembele is much rougher in some aspects due to his age etc.

But we are seeing an interesting shift though. Coutinho was considered undroppable but now? not anymore it seems. Valverde seems to favor Dembele, despite the drama with him being late for training and some aspects being rougher than Coutinho.

Dembele was being played as an RWB vs Levante while Coutinho was on the bench for 81 mins. If this back in March of last season there was no way that would have happened as Coutinho would have likely started with Paulinho being pushed to RWB

But now? Valverde has a lot more trust in the kid and doesn't seem all that worried about Coutinho riding the bench.

I think it was more about EV being too insecure to have any creativity in 3 men midfield, thats why its always Vidal-Busi-Raki or Arthur-Busi-Raki. If its 4-4-2 Coutinho always plays, in the 3-5-2 of course Coutinho isn't gonna play as RWB
 

DonAndres

Wild Man of Borneo
I had these reservations about Coutinho before we signed him, but I think some people are getting a bit too hasty about his form. The position problem is a serious one. He was supposed to have been bought to elevate the midfield but instead went to LW and screwed up the dynamic we'd intended to have with the Dembele transfer. I really don't know how that is gonna be sorted down the road. Either someone important gets sold or Messi goes false 9 once Suarez is no longer capable of being a starter

His form, however, has been poor but I won't be surprised when he brings himself back up. He is a class player and has had spells here where he carried this team and looked like the only good player besides Messi. He was also Brazil's best player in the WC without a doubt. The quality is there, but I think we're stuck in a pretty tough spot regarding his permanent role.
 

Givenchy

Senior Member
Really... Dembele close to Coutinho's quality?... I mean Dembele has a ceiling to maybe even be the best in the world dor one day but right now he literally can do nothing as good as Coutinho except his pace. And yes him performing on the wing better than Coutinho is a pace thing, Coutinho just isn't a winger and I don't think he wants to play there. And Klopp said he didn't fit Liverpools style and still was being played due to his talent and was on the comparison who is the best in the league between him/Hazard/KDB

Dembele might be all about potential or ceiling in the long run but right now hes 2nd in importance to Messi.. at the age of 21 thats pretty crazy. don't take that as me shitting on Coutinho to praise Dembele, i love Coutinho and want both to succeed here, just what i've seen thus far. EV is certainly part of the issue but unless we move to a formation that allows a CAM i don't see him succeeding here.

I'd actually like to see

-----------Busi-Vidal
Dembele-Coutinho-?????
-----------Messi

Coutinho would be lethal with 2 pacey wingers, Messi ahead of him and those long shots..
 

Respekt_III

Anti-everything
Wouldn't LW be Malcom in that formation?

It's absurd how much leeway Coutinho is getting compared to Dembele.
At best Couthinho was a 40-50m player, i would of much preferred getting someone like De Bryne for 120m+ (or even the over rated Pogba).
I totally agree though that Valverde isnt helping things and we really need to make the right appointment next time around.
 

xXKonan

Senior Member
Valverde isn't going to move away from the Arthur-Busi-Rakitic & Vidal-Busi-Rakitic at this point or any other Midfield variation such as Arthur-Rakitic/Busi-Vidal as well.

He seems convinced that Coutinho is an LW/LM(4-4-2)now and that's about it unless we hit an injury crisis and he has to play in the Midfield. I mean what can we do? Coutinho's main competition is Dembele who is in very good form now and he will likely keep seeing the bench more often due to it.

I want to see Coutinho with a different coach before making any final verdicts.
 

khaled_a_d

Senior Member
Valverde isn't going to move away from the Arthur-Busi-Rakitic & Vidal-Busi-Rakitic at this point or any other Midfield variation such as Arthur-Rakitic/Busi-Vidal as well.

He seems convinced that Coutinho is an LW/LM(4-4-2)now and that's about it unless we hit an injury crisis and he has to play in the Midfield. I mean what can we do? Coutinho's main competition is Dembele who is in very good form now and he will likely keep seeing the bench more often due to it.

I want to see Coutinho with a different coach before making any final verdicts.

And more importantly, leave the number 7 :banghead:
JK, I think
 

serghei

Senior Member
[MENTION=19222]xXKonan[/MENTION] same here. I don't get why Ernie doesn't play him as an AM from time to time, vs smaller teams on Camp Nou. In a midfield three. The risks would be minimal. Try him with Rakitic, Arthur or Vidal who are high workrate players.
 

shadows

Member
[MENTION=19222]xXKonan[/MENTION] same here. I don't get why Ernie doesn't play him as an AM from time to time, vs smaller teams on Camp Nou. In a midfield three. The risks would be minimal. Try him with Rakitic, Arthur or Vidal who are high workrate players.

Minimal risk is still risky and there are no small teams, every one is dangerous :valverde:

Seriously though, what has he done in the past to warrant he would do any such thing?? If he wanted to try something different, He would`ve realised long ago that Busi/Rakitic playing together offsets our entire team dynamics in that we become very slow with zero creativity, Rakitic plays sub par in his role etc...But he continues to play the 2 in each and every game.. So putting Coutinho in midfield is almost next to impossible since he has just the one vacant slow but he has 3 for that position (Arthur, Vidal and Alena) so far...
 
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Messi983

Senior Member
[MENTION=19222]xXKonan[/MENTION] same here. I don't get why Ernie doesn't play him as an AM from time to time, vs smaller teams on Camp Nou. In a midfield three. The risks would be minimal. Try him with Rakitic, Arthur or Vidal who are high workrate players.

He played there at the start of the season and wasn't really convincing IMO. We have also conceded a lot of goals against those smaller teams (2 against Huesca, Girona and Leganes). I'm not saying he was the only reason for that but when EV has introduced Arthur in his role in Tottenham away game we had more control and later with Vidal we also got more defensive stability over the last month.

It's easy (and popular here) to blame EV but if his system is really so bad then why is Dembele playing good in that same system and why have newcomers like Arthur and Vidal also performed better than Coutinho? Yes, he was injured for some time but so were Arthur and Vidal and they are playing better. Coutinho should improve his form a lot before I would consider starting him over one of Dembele, Arthur or Vidal. There will be (probably) a lot of games in January so I would use Copa games (when we'll rest some of the players) to get him back on track. It's up to him to show he deserves to be a starter. For me he's currently nothing more than a luxury bench option who can potentially change games coming off the bench though he hasn't done that much either.
 

GOAT_SUAREZ

New member
No point in questioning this player, clearly in this squad nobody comes even close to him in terms of quality, besides Messi ofc. Its all on the manager for being too inept at recognizing players strength and getting the best out of him, first season he plays as CM on the right, this season he is a winger? Stop wasting such talents.

Dembouz better tbh.
 

henias

New member
He played there at the start of the season and wasn't really convincing IMO. We have also conceded a lot of goals against those smaller teams (2 against Huesca, Girona and Leganes). I'm not saying he was the only reason for that but when EV has introduced Arthur in his role in Tottenham away game we had more control and later with Vidal we also got more defensive stability over the last month.

It's easy (and popular here) to blame EV but if his system is really so bad then why is Dembele playing good in that same system and why have newcomers like Arthur and Vidal also performed better than Coutinho? Yes, he was injured for some time but so were Arthur and Vidal and they are playing better. Coutinho should improve his form a lot before I would consider starting him over one of Dembele, Arthur or Vidal. There will be (probably) a lot of games in January so I would use Copa games (when we'll rest some of the players) to get him back on track. It's up to him to show he deserves to be a starter. For me he's currently nothing more than a luxury bench option who can potentially change games coming off the bench though he hasn't done that much either.

Wait, I thought EV fans said it was the omission of Dembele and not the introduction of Arthur that allowed us to play better as a team, even Rafinha is a more solid player than Dembele ever will be here? How come the tides have turned and now it's Coutinho that is causing the most problem and not Dembele anymore. And it is EV's credit and geniosity to introduce Arthur? Coutinho also struggled in LW positions, not just AM.

Just the usual mental gymnastics. Sigh, seen too much of this it becomes predictable.

The fact that EV hardly experiments with the midfield 3, and the front 3 because of the need to shoehorn Busquets/Rakitic and Messi/Suarez is already telling enough. That itself is a known fact. No excuse whatsoever when dealing with a squad of his quality. You guys love to be so sure "this can't work, that can't work". But have he ever phased out the older players to try a new fresher midfield? Have he seriously given it a shot? As soon as Rakitic was back from injury, he was so eager to get him back in the field.

Answer is evidently no.
 
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Alik

Moderator
Wait, I thought EV fans said it was the omission of Dembele and not the introduction of Arthur that allowed us to play better as a team, even Rafinha is a more solid player than Dembele ever will be here? How come the tides have turned and now it's Coutinho that is causing the most problem and not Dembele anymore. And it is EV's credit and geniosity to introduce Arthur? Coutinho also struggled in LW positions, not just AM.

Just the usual mental gymnastics. Sigh, seen too much of this it becomes predictable.

The fact that EV hardly experiments with the midfield 3, and the front 3 because of the need to shoehorn Busquets/Rakitic and Messi/Suarez is already telling enough. That itself is a known fact. No excuse whatsoever when dealing with a squad of his quality. You guys love to be so sure "this can't work, that can't work". But have he ever phased out the older players to try a new fresher midfield? Have he seriously given it a shot? As soon as Rakitic was back from injury, he was so eager to get him back in the field.

Answer is evidently no.

Remember when Rafinha gave us more #balance? :lol:
 

serghei

Senior Member
He played there at the start of the season and wasn't really convincing IMO. We have also conceded a lot of goals against those smaller teams (2 against Huesca, Girona and Leganes). I'm not saying he was the only reason for that but when EV has introduced Arthur in his role in Tottenham away game we had more control and later with Vidal we also got more defensive stability over the last month.

It's easy (and popular here) to blame EV but if his system is really so bad then why is Dembele playing good in that same system and why have newcomers like Arthur and Vidal also performed better than Coutinho? Yes, he was injured for some time but so were Arthur and Vidal and they are playing better. Coutinho should improve his form a lot before I would consider starting him over one of Dembele, Arthur or Vidal. There will be (probably) a lot of games in January so I would use Copa games (when we'll rest some of the players) to get him back on track. It's up to him to show he deserves to be a starter. For me he's currently nothing more than a luxury bench option who can potentially change games coming off the bench though he hasn't done that much either.

Don't think he played there tbh. I've mostly saw him going up and being more of a forward. You say about Leganes, but a lot of times in the Leganes game he was one of our most advanced players on the field, rather than staying for large periods in the midfield. He even scored a goal from an advanced position. And in the Girona game he didn't play from the start, and only went in for 10 men Barca when Girona was 2-1 up. Don't see how him playing after Girona did the damage already is any sign of anything about our defensive structure. We did our worst defensive performance vs Betis in a game Coutinho didn't play due to injury so this idea that Coutinho playing in midfield is a clear factor for our weaknesses in defending is totally false.

Problem is there is no place for an AM in this team because the midfield under Valverde has a very low creative role on purpose. It's Messi-ball tactics usually, with midfielders being there mostly as ball-winners and defensive measures, trying to make up for the very low defensive input of the front 3.

Check the assists stats of our midfielders under Valverde, any midfielder for that matter, and you'll see very low numbers. Coutinho doesn't play in midfield because Valverde is scared to sacrifice a position for a creative first, defensive second type of player. He'd rather use it to strenghten defense. Which is why he plays with 3 midfielders who are all on the defensive side. Rakitic, Busi and Vidal. Even Arthur is used more under Valverde as a safety player, is not allowed to do too much of the creating part. And we get to see more of his fighting spirit and see him doing quite a lot of dispossessions and tackles, engaging in physical duels too (he's kind of underrated in this sense, as he is pretty strong for his stature).

There's no place for Coutinho in midfield because Valverde's team is unbalanced. He tries to hide that by having 3 defensive minded players in midfield. It's sort of like how Argentina used to play with Gago, Mascherano and Biglia behind their front three of Di Maria, Messi and Higuain. Any of those 3 midfielders were supposed to put in a hard shift so they could basically hide the fact that their attackers did very little work off the ball to help the defensive shape. The lack of creativity wasn't too much of a concern, because they had Messi and put everything down on him doing his thing.
 
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