6 - Carles Alena

[jamrock]

Zinchenko as played again

Swansea
Newcastle
Liecester
Arsenal
Chelsea
Burnley

And a few others, all premium league teams except wolves.

Who do we think feel better about there progression this season, Alena & dembele or Zinchenko.

Does foden feel better about starting a CL Knock out stage game, or does Alena feel better about getting more minutes.

 

[JamDav1982]

Zinchenko as played again

Swansea
Newcastle
Liecester
Arsenal
Chelsea
Burnley

And a few others, all premium league teams except wolves.

Who do we think feel better about there progression this season, Alena & dembele or Zinchenko.

Does foden feel better about starting a CL Knock out stage game, or does Alena feel better about getting more minutes.

Yes he has at 21 and with the two left backs injured.

Alena started away to Espanyol when more at stake than meaningless CL games. There has not been any great minutes or trust in those young players at City who have not been great so far anyway.

 

[serghei]

Zinchenko as played again

Swansea
Newcastle
Liecester
Arsenal
Chelsea
Burnley

And a few others, all premium league teams except wolves.

Who do we think feel better about there progression this season, Alena & dembele or Zinchenko.

Does foden feel better about starting a CL Knock out stage game, or does Alena feel better about getting more minutes.

I agree. There's no doubt Pep is trusting young players more, same with Zidane. Arguing otherwise is just rubbish.

Valverde had a CL game with nothing at stake and he preferred to use it to play the bench players instead of giving time to young talented players. Could have played Alena, Arnaiz, Oriol Busquets in that game, but he just didn't. That was as clear declaration of intent on his part as you can see. In the same scenario, at a higher level even, Pep gave a bunch of talented kids a start in a CL last 16 game after securing the qualification. Valverde in the same scenario would never play the young talents. He'd play the guys on the bench.

I was convinced in the Sporting game that promoting young players and giving them minutes on the biggest stage is just not one if his priorities. There's no way you let that golden chance slip if you care about promoting talent.

Yes he has at 21 and with the two left backs injured.

Was Delph always injured in the games Zinchenko played? And even if we say he was, do you think Valverde would play a 21 year old unproven kid if Alba and Digne would get injured? No he wouldn't. He would play a player out of position and wouldn't take that chance.

 

[khaled_a_d]

I agree. There's no doubt Pep is trusting young players more, same with Zidane. Arguing otherwise is just rubbish.

What is the definition of youth player? I mean are we talking about academy player ala Alena & Diaz|? or signed players or those coming from first team loans like Dembele,Zinchenko,Asensio, Denis etc?
Pep surely will give young players he signed a chance, same as EV who made Dembele starter once he signed

What is rubbish is counting Dembele against EV, because the guy got no pre-season, no games and injured twice and doesn't yet speak Spanish. coming back from injury is harder for young players in terms of adaptation. And dembele isn't performing very well anyway, people are praising him for above average game against Girona and if it was any other player it will be probably "eh, not a bad game"
Injuries put Dembele out of the starting line up, not EV

What other players of that category have? answer is absolutely non unless we are moving term young to include other U-25 players like Denis (got more than fair chance and sucked) , Gomes (got more than fair chance), Semedo (better player who is in same age category is taking his position and he still fairly plays), Digne (get more than fair minutes) and Deulofeu (again got his minutes)

Now speaking about youth products? Pep isn't good at it by any mean, promoted only 4 in Barca when he came from Barca B, zero in Bayern and yet to promote anyone in City.
Who has he played from youth team? Foden & Diaz?
Diaz played a total of 1 FA cup minute, 88 EFL minutes, 30 EPL minutes. 52 minutes in CL (in much weaker group)
Foden: 17 minutes in EPL, 91 in EFL cup and one sure he played more in CL
Alena? sure he get less in Liga but reason is that he actually plays in Second division in Spain which is very tough, and that is the reason why he didn't play in Cl same minutes as those 2 because Lopez requested him for important game 2 days later.
He played more minutes than those 2 combined in cups, and started against Espanyol which was tougher and more meaningful than any minutes the other has gotten.
So again, it is all a discussion of minutes, Pep might get the edge but truth is he yet to show he is a youth coach in any other club.

 

[JamDav1982]

I agree. There's no doubt Pep is trusting young players more, same with Zidane. Arguing otherwise is just rubbish.

Valverde had a CL game with nothing at stake and he preferred to use it to play the bench players instead of giving time to young talented players. Could have played Alena, Arnaiz, Oriol Busquets in that game, but he just didn't. That was as clear declaration of intent on his part as you can see. In the same scenario, at a higher level even, Pep gave a bunch of talented kids a start in a CL last 16 game after securing the qualification. Valverde in the same scenario would never play the young talents. He'd play the guys on the bench.

I was convinced in the Sporting game that promoting young players and giving them minutes on the biggest stage is just not one if his priorities. There's no way you let that golden chance slip if you care about promoting talent.



Was Delph always injured in the games Zinchenko played? And even if we say he was, do you think Valverde would play a 21 year old unproven kid if Alba and Digne would get injured? No he wouldn't. He would play a player out of position and wouldn't take that chance.

Yes I think EV would play a 21 who is third choice if the two/arguably three players ahead of him cant be picked.

He is hardly some 'unproven kid' anyway.

Pep in his first two seasons has barely played youngsters unless you try to make out players transferred in playing at 21 when players ahead of him injured.

As for 'playing players out of position' instead of youngsters this is something Pep has done regularly as well. Did it at Barca with CBs and numerous times at City in past two seasons.

 

[serghei]

What is the definition of youth player? I mean are we talking about academy player ala Alena & Diaz|? or signed players or those coming from first team loans like Dembele,Zinchenko,Asensio, Denis etc?
Pep surely will give young players he signed a chance, same as EV who made Dembele starter once he signed

Denis is 24 years old, same as Umtiti. He's not very young. Normally I'd say under 22 is what should be considered a young player.

Asensio, Jesus, Sane, Zinchenko, Dias, Alena, Ceballos, Aschraf, Mayoral, Oriol Busquets, Arnaiz, McTominay etc.

What is rubbish is counting Dembele against EV, because the guy got no pre-season, no games and injured twice and doesn't yet speak Spanish. coming back from injury is harder for young players in terms of adaptation. And dembele isn't performing very well anyway, people are praising him for above average game against Girona and if it was any other player it will be probably "eh, not a bad game"
Injuries put Dembele out of the starting line up, not EV

That's sort of true. Valverde made some minor mistakes with Dembele. For example, not playing him vs Las Palmas. But it's not EV's fault overall. It's just that he could have given him a bit more chances. Starting him vs the likes of Getafe, playing him vs Las Palmas. These sort of things.

What other players of that category have? answer is absolutely non unless we are moving term young to include other U-25 players like Denis (got more than fair chance and sucked) , Gomes (got more than fair chance), Semedo (better player who is in same age category is taking his position and he still fairly plays), Digne (get more than fair minutes) and Deulofeu (again got his minutes)

We have Alena. Has he played any minutes in La Liga so far? Players of his age done that in Madrid and Manchester City. And not better or more talented players. Valverde didn't even give valuable time to Alena in a CL game that had no importance vs Sporting.

True, we don't have many young players, but the good ones we have got crap minutes, mostly in low level Copa games, and mostly in games were 5-6 young players would start at the same time, with no chemistry in the team being present.

Arnaiz played very well in the Copa, he was our main goalscorer. Did he play a single minute in La Liga since then? No he didn't. Once those easy games in the Copa del Rey ended, he was forgotten. Didn't even play in Copa vs Valencia. Or vs Espanyol, after being good vs Celta.

I'd say Alena got a good game vs Espanyol away in Copa. That's about it.

Now speaking about youth products? Pep isn't good at it by any mean, promoted only 4 in Barca when he came from Barca B, zero in Bayern and yet to promote anyone in City.
Who has he played from youth team? Foden & Diaz?

Pep promoted Pedro and Busquets, who became absolutely key players for us. Who did Valverde promote so far? Not a single player. Pep promoted Pedro and Busquets, Lucho game plenty of game time to Sandro, Munir, and even managed to put Roberto in the first team.

Valverde did nothing so far. Didn't show trust in a single young player within our ranks.

Alena? sure he get less in Liga but reason is that he actually plays in Second division in Spain which is very tough, and that is the reason why he didn't play in Cl same minutes as those 2 because Lopez requested him for important game 2 days later.
He played more minutes than those 2 combined in cups, and started against Espanyol which was tougher and more meaningful than any minutes the other has gotten.
So again, it is all a discussion of minutes, Pep might get the edge but truth is he yet to show he is a youth coach in any other club.

Pep trusted Busi and Pedro at Barcelona and implemented them in the first team. They were good, but raw, and far from certified future world class players. They became that because Guardiola trusted them, played them, even at the expense of star players like Yaya at the time, and developed them. At Bayern he developed Coman, developed Kimmich (evolved the most with him). At City he's playing Zinchenko, developing Jesus, developing Sane and others.

Tell me one under 22 years old player who is playing better under Valverde so far than before him. There isn't one. What he's done is bring back discipline, improved defense, and things like that. But for young players, he's not done much.

 

[JamDav1982]

This myth that likes of Pedro and Busi 'became good because Pep trusted them' again.

Those type of players it is far more about what they show when they get a chance and Peps system would have suited them and he would have recognised their talents that some at club didnt previously.

Both Busi and Pedro came through at 20/21 as first team players and had been with Pep previously.

He is playing Zinchenko as third choice. He is 21 and signed for decent money. Not some 'unproven kid' as being made out.

Pep is not under same pressure to win and been there longer in more stable environment also.

 

[khaled_a_d]

Denis is 24 years old, same as Umtiti. He's not very young. Normally I'd say under 22 is what should be considered a young player.

Asensio, Jesus, Sane, Zinchenko, Dias, Alena, Ceballos, Aschraf, Mayoral, Oriol Busquets, Arnaiz, McTominay etc.



That's sort of true. Valverde made some minor mistakes with Dembele. For example, not playing him vs Las Palmas. But it's not EV's fault overall. It's just that he could have given him a bit more chances. Starting him vs the likes of Getafe, playing him vs Las Palmas. These sort of things.



We have Alena. Has he played any minutes in La Liga so far? Players of his age done that in Madrid and Manchester City. And not better or more talented players. Valverde didn't even give valuable time to Alena in a CL game that had no importance vs Sporting.

True, we don't have many young players, but the good ones we have got crap minutes, mostly in low level Copa games, and mostly in games were 5-6 young players would start at the same time, with no chemistry in the team being present.

Arnaiz played very well in the Copa, he was our main goalscorer. Did he play a single minute in La Liga since then? No he didn't. Once those easy games in the Copa del Rey ended, he was forgotten. Didn't even play in Copa vs Valencia.

I'd say Alena got a good game vs Espanyol away in Copa. That's about it.



Pep promoted Pedro and Busquets, who became absolutely key players for us. Who did Valverde promote so far? Not a single player. Pep promoted Pedro and Busquets, Lucho game plenty of game time to Sandro, Munir, and even managed to put Roberto in the first team.

Valverde did nothing so far. Didn't show trust in a single young player within our ranks.




Pep trusted Busi and Pedro at Barcelona and implemented in the first team. At Bayern he developed Coman, developed Kimmich. At City he's playing Zinchenko, developing Jesus, developing Sane and others.

Tell me one under 22 years old player who is playing better under Valverde so far than before him. There isn't one.

1ِ-Pep came directly from B team, EV came from another team, this is a huge factor that makes the comparison almost invalid and you keep ignoring it.
2-You are saying youth players who are U-22, ok then. But you again want to just categorize it by age only and not based on the status of the youth player. It is one thing to get a player who is already first team player somewhere else (Sane,Zinchenko Jesus) and players who are promoted from the academy
The first is on the board and not just the coach. We don't have any of those except Dembele, others are already much older than 22 (all are at least 24)
EV has showed absolutely nothing he is against those players, he used every player whether he is 33 or 20.
Again, you are making comparison and assumptions based on different things
B team players getting promoted? Pep has failed in that in two teams he coached from outside and not from B team, he doesn't currently count on anyone more than EV, all things considered that any player from both team has played was Alena's game against Espanyol, the only reason that Foden & Diaz get some minutes more (not much) with 1st team is because status of Cl is different for both teams and because of B team in Barca is actually playing in very competetive league

 

[serghei]

1ِ-Pep came directly from B team, EV came from another team, this is a huge factor that makes the comparison almost invalid and you keep ignoring it.
2-You are saying youth players who are U-22, ok then. But you again want to just categorize it by age only and not based on the status of the youth player. It is one thing to get a player who is already first team player somewhere else (Sane,Zinchenko Jesus) and players who are promoted from the academy
The first is on the board and not just the coach. We don't have any of those except Dembele, others are already much older than 22 (all are at least 24)
EV has showed absolutely nothing he is against those players, he used every player whether he is 33 or 20.
Again, you are making comparison and assumptions based on different things
B team players getting promoted? Pep has failed in that in two teams he coached from outside and not from B team, he doesn't currently count on anyone more than EV, all things considered that any player from both team has played was Alena's game against Espanyol, the only reason that Foden & Diaz get some minutes more (not much) with 1st team is because status of Cl is different for both teams and because of B team in Barca is actually playing in very competetive league

1) Valverde has played plenty of young players for Bilbao before, right? So, at Barcelona he needs to keep that side of his job, because we have an aging squad and not enough money to sign a world class player on every position.

2) I was speaking about young players. 'Young' refers to age, not status. To start 19, 20, 21 years old players requires a risk no matter the level of the player, except if we're talking about insane talents like Messi, Ronaldo Fenomeno etc. Guardiola played Jesus and left Aguero on the bench several times for example, in some important games even. That's not something Valverde would do. He won't bench a proven top class striker for an inspired on form youngster. In his first derby with Mourinho on Old Trafford, Guardiola played 20 years old Iheanacho as a striker. Guardiola is a risk taker, Valverde at Barca so far is not.

We have 1 highly rated young player - Dembele, considered an insane talent. We have Mina who is very highly rated as well (CBs mature later). We have Semedo who's not very young, but still young enough. We have Alena who could have played more even this season in some games.

If you really want to promote a player, Barcelona allows you to. A lot of games are 3-0, 4-1 in min 60 on Camp Nou. Who's stopping you from subbing in Alena for Iniesta in the 60th minute? No one. But you have to want to.

 

[JamDav1982]

1) Valverde has played plenty of young players for Bilbao before, right? So, at Barcelona he needs to keep that side of his job, because we have an aging squad and not enough money to sign a world class player on every position.

2) I was speaking about young players. 'Young' refers to age, not status. To start 19, 20, 21 years old players requires a risk no matter the level of the player, except if we're talking about insane talents like Messi, Ronaldo Fenomeno etc. Guardiola played Jesus and left Aguero on the bench several times for example, in some important games even. That's not something Valverde would do. He won't bench a proven top class striker for an inspired on form youngster. In his first derby with Mourinho on Old Trafford, Guardiola played 20 years old Iheanacho as a striker. Guardiola is a risk taker, Valverde at Barca so far is not.

We have 1 highly rated young player - Dembele, considered an insane talent. We have Mina who is very highly rated as well (CBs mature later). We have Semedo who's not very young, but still young enough. We have Alena who could have played more even this season in some games.

If you really want to promote a player, Barcelona allows you to. A lot of games are 3-0, 4-1 in min 60 on Camp Nou. Who's stopping you from subbing in Alena for Iniesta in the 60th minute? No one. But you have to want to.

What young players should he be playing more?

Mina and Semedo are not young players if you consider it to be 22 and younger.

 

[serghei]

What young players should he be playing more?

This season?

Alena should have got some of the easier games on Camp Nou. Games vs poor teams on Camp Nou we usually beat badly.
Semedo should have had fewer long breaks between performances, certainly not a whole month with only 30-40 mins played like in february prior to his injury vs Girona.
Dembele should have played more games from the start (even with his injuries, he was left on the bench quite a few times while considered fit to play). Played a single game as a starter since he got back, vs Girona. In which he happened to play well. If he wasn't going to get the game vs Atletico, then he should have got the one vs Las Palmas, 4 days prior to that one.
Mina should get some of the easier games as well. He is a starter for Colombia one of the best teams from South America, not some scrub.

 

[jamrock]

It's always funny when people argue against peps clear dedication to develop and bring along young players moving the goal post oh he only promoted busquets and blah blah at Barca?

How many young young players got a chance under pep to prove themselves? That is the point you crazy crazy individuals, how many young people really got there chance under zidane at Madrid.

Stop talking dumb crap about the actual numbers promoted no reasonable fan is expecting a coach to promote 7 youth team players, it's about giving young players a chance to develop and prove themselves and that he as gone throughout is career.

At Barca the list is too long to name out.

At Bayern kimmich & coman, no there weren't "promoted" under his since thats the clutch word to try and diminish what he as done, but I'm 100 percent sure if you ask those players they will tell you how important he was to there development while there.


At City Zinchenko is playing against top teams, foden as been injured this season but the moment he as been back he as been involved.

Diaz as played in real games with results on the line not some crap games that as already been decided


Clear difference between him, zidane and valverde, who is afraid of his own shadow.

All this techina crap about minutes is irrelevant, Roberto playing a few minutes in El clasico meant more to him and showed the coach and faith, than play 4 games in the copa.

If it were about minutes thiago would still be a Barca player, it's about development and showing young players you have faith in there ability and will take the risk of playing them to help bring it out.

 

[khaled_a_d]

1) Valverde has played plenty of young players for Bilbao before, right? So, at Barcelona he needs to keep that side of his job, because we have an aging squad and not enough money to sign a world class player on every position.

2) I was speaking about young players. 'Young' refers to age, not status. To start 19, 20, 21 years old players requires a risk no matter the level of the player, except if we're talking about insane talents like Messi, Ronaldo Fenomeno etc. Guardiola played Jesus and left Aguero on the bench several times for example, in some important games even. That's not something Valverde would do. He won't bench a proven top class striker for an inspired on form youngster. In his first derby with Mourinho on Old Trafford, Guardiola played 20 years old Iheanacho as a striker. Guardiola is a risk taker, Valverde at Barca so far is not.

We have 1 highly rated young player - Dembele, considered an insane talent. We have Mina who is very highly rated as well (CBs mature later). We have Semedo who's not very young, but still young enough. We have Alena who could have played more even this season in some games.

If you really want to promote a player, Barcelona allows you to. A lot of games are 3-0, 4-1 in min 60 on Camp Nou. Who's stopping you from subbing in Alena for Iniesta in the 60th minute? No one. But you have to want to.

1-what does Bilbao has to do with it? Pep has coached Busquets and Pedro and were shaping their career there, youth coach has more access for those kids and normal they promote and give chances to them. He did that in Barca and Zidan did it again when he moved from B team to first team. Bilbao has their Basque only strategy and not asked to win anything.

2-Again, you can speak about young, but to make valid comparison you need to consider other factors. Valverde played Dembele as a started against CL runner up in his 3rd game, Jesus is same level of talent. EV doesn't have talents like this except Dembele.
Semedo is getting enough time, and I am sure Valverde doesn't think "Roberto is 20 months older than Semedo, he should get the starting spot".
We have Alena, but no player of Alena age and status is getting more playing time in City, just rubbish minutes here and there and that's it.
Would subbing Alena in 30 minutes once every 3 or 4 weeks when we are already winning help Alena more than 90 minutes every week in Segunda?

 

[Joan]

Didn't Pep play Delph out of position instead of trusting young Zinchenko?

Not saying Pep doesn't trust youth more that EV, but you are making too much out of it.

 

[serghei]

1-what does Bilbao has to do with it? Pep has coached Busquets and Pedro and were shaping their career there, youth coach has more access for those kids and normal they promote and give chances to them. He did that in Barca and Zidan did it again when he moved from B team to first team. Bilbao has their Basque only strategy and not asked to win anything.

2-Again, you can speak about young, but to make valid comparison you need to consider other factors. Valverde played Dembele as a started against CL runner up in his 3rd game, Jesus is same level of talent. EV doesn't have talents like this except Dembele.
Semedo is getting enough time, and I am sure Valverde doesn't think "Roberto is 20 months older than Semedo, he should get the starting spot".
We have Alena, but no player of Alena age and status is getting more playing time in City, just rubbish minutes here and there and that's it.
Would subbing Alena in 30 minutes once every 3 or 4 weeks when we are already winning help Alena more than 90 minutes every week in Segunda?

1) Well, he did a pretty good job at Bilbao playing some young players there. At Barcelona he'll also have to develop young players. This is part of his job. Considering we're in the rebuilding phase, I want to see more from him because this is the man that will be in charge of the future Barcelona.

2) Yes, giving Alena 30 mins in some games in La Liga would be a good start, and a step in the right direction. At City, many players of Alena's status have played in the first team in the Premier League. Some even played in Champions League. Alena has played no games in CL or La Liga. Just some Copa games, and even those in very very experimental teams filled with youngsters and bench players.

Foden, a 17 years old player (17!!) just played 90 mins in a CL knockout game. Alena wasn't even trusted to start a completely irrelevant game vs Sporting in the Group Stages. It's details like that that matter.