21 - Frenkie de Jong

[serghei]

Lel.

Let's go 1 by 1:
1. 2009, do you think that we should have won a title with a fair refereeing? No

Lol. Were you sleeping or drunk during Barcelona - Chelsea 0-0?

Rewatch the match. You will see a non existent offside for Eto'o 1 vs 1 with Cech. A penalty for Henry coupled with a red for Bosingwa, circa min. 70 or so. A red for Ballack for 2 clear yellow card fouls. That's like 4 critical errors against us.

Do you know for a fact that we wouldn't have won the game 3-0 and burried Chelsea on Camp Nou in a scenario were those mistakes don't happen? No. All you do is talk shit about a team that was by far the best team in the world, and probably the best football team ever assembled.

Arsenal? You think we beat Arsenal because of the ref? Seriously? And you expect people to give you the benefit of the doubt after spouting these kind of idiocies?

 

[Arizona Scott]

Imo:
1. we wouldn't have won a CL in 2009 with a good refereeing
2. in 2010, we would maybe win against Inter, but we would still have to play a final against Bayern. So, this is still a 50:50 chance for a trophy.
3. 2011, Arsenal, who knows what would have happened
4. 2012, we wouldn't win either way

So, in a real world, we have 2 trophies in Pep's 4 years.
And we shouldn't have won in 2009, and then, maybe Pep would leave, maybe we would never get mental strength, maybe Pep would try to play differently.
So, we have 2 CLs this way.
And with fair referees, we would have maybe 2010 and maybe 2011. Or maybe NONE, who knows?
But we wouldn't have more than 2 CLs in any way.

So, we would have 0, 1 or 2 CLs.

But I hate these childish:
Real won with luck.
Real had a lucky draw.
Their opponents were scared.
Portugal was lucky.
Barca was unlucky.
Refs were against us.
Messi is always unlucky with his team.

The truth is somewhere in the middle:
Barca had a great team and shit ton of luck and referee's help.
Remember that we lost against Chelsea 2009, team of thugs. Inter 2010, another team of thugs and we couldn't win. Chelsea 2012 again.
So, we were winning due to a good team, help from refs and only when we were lucky in a draw not to face a thug team since Pep never had an answer for those teams.

Real, the same story: a good team, some luck, some help from referees.

But a story how:
1. we were so good and winning trophies only due to our insane quality
2. while RM are winning mostly due to luck and a lucky draw
= imo, is on a level of 12 years kids

I generally agree refing and luck balance out. If you bring up 2009, what is forgotten by most all Chelsea fans who whine about it is the had an undo man advantage almost all of leg 2. How does that compare with them not getting 1 handball without the benefit of slowmo. You also use the term "thug" teams. Don't you think such teams should be called for fouls and when appropriate, carded. Those teams can't whine when they get called for more fouls and sometimes have a man down--it is a risk when they are deliberately playing that way, they should have no such complaints when they are reffed from the perspective of the beautiful game rather than brute ball. But refs will have different tolerance and you have to adjust to how the big matches are officiated (and why I like having someone like Vidal on the bench to adjust--would have been nice to have him as an option the last 6-7 years).

I am not saying Real's 4 CLs in the last 10 years are not deserved, nor I am saying Barca's 3 CLs in this period are not deserved. Truth is it is really hard to win a CL--and almost invariably the winners got some favorable calls or goals in or out critical to the results were inches away (I would say it is luck when a ball hits the inside of the crossbar dives in vs out, what reduces luck is when you create a number of good chances, you can still roll a 1/20 and lose, that is why it is sports and not hollywood script). It is why Jose Mourinho takes more accomplishment and appreciates (big) league titles than CL wins, even though is lackluster in the 1st relative to the talents he has had and has great results all in all in the 2nd.

Barca could have won it every year last decade, except the Bayern demolishing with Messi and others injured. Real was probably good enough to win it about 7 times in this period. Bayern probably got some bad luck not only have one, Atletico got bad luck not to get one. Maybe Juv or Liverpool have a case too. Inter got some good luck all in all to have a CL title--everything in a single formidable year they had a shot lined up for them. Chelsea is about right, where one would expected them to get one (but not two) given their squads and chances over the last decade. Without a doubt however Real and Barca have been the best CL teams of the past decade, the big English and German teams you refer to can't touch Barca's success in this tournament. Bayern would love to have 2 CL trophies the last decade, let alone 3, Juve would be joyous if they had 1.

FYI you are totally correct teams are going to try crosses and longballs against Barca. Teams have to play to their strengths and Barca's relative weaknesses. I think some tweaks (tactics and a few wise additions here and there for some bench flexibility) would have helped us defend some key moments but no I don't think our team has been set up to fail in the CL. We are in an incredibly exclusive club to have 3 (possibly 4), in a 10 year period.

 

[Luftstalag14]

Has anybody watched the Ajax - PSV game? Ajax won 3:1, De Jong played quite well in my opinion, indirectly setting up/contributing to two of the three Ajax goals with nice forward through passes that were very accurate.

De Ligt on the other hand was meh in my opinion, was caught behind Luuk De Jong when he headed the PSV goal into the net.

 

[Raketa10]

Has anybody watched the Ajax - PSV game? Ajax won 3:1, De Jong played quite well in my opinion, indirectly setting up/contributing to two of the three Ajax goals with nice forward through passes that were very accurate.

De Ligt on the other hand was meh in my opinion, was caught behind Luuk De Jong when he headed the PSV goal into the net.

IMHO both of them were quite meh. De Jong is a huge talent but he needs to improve in the final third (especially his final pass) if he want's to succeed here. I am 100% sure his best position is DM and not CM like some members here are claiming.

 

[Luftstalag14]

IMHO both of them were quite meh.

De Jong does have the tendency to hold the ball for too long and makes some risky moves to get rid of it (like he did toward the end of the first half) but overall I thought he did well. Some people criticized him for not driving the ball forward and he did plenty of that. After Ajax got the red card they pretty much had to stay in their own half for the most part of the second half and he was mostly in defensive play.

 

[Raketa10]

De Jong does have the tendency to hold the ball for too long and makes some risky moves to get rid of it (like he did toward the end of the first half) but overall I thought he did well. Some people criticized him for not driving the ball forward and he did plenty of that. After Ajax got the red card they pretty much had to stay in their own half for the most part of the second half and he was mostly in defensive play.

Yep red card killed the game but Schwaab helped Ajax with that stupid penalty.

What worries me is the fact that both Arthur and De Jong have simmilar qualites but lack same things. Both of them are strong on the ball and have perfect short pass but both of them also lack that final pass and they don't shoot the ball at all. I hope they will work on that. Maybe pairing both of them with Coutinho is the way to go. As I already wrote in Cou thread he is the only midfielder (he is not a LW) in our current squad who can make perfect final pass in the final third and who can alongside Rakitic shoot the ball from distance. It makes me sick that Valverde doesn't know how to use him properly.

 

[Luftstalag14]

[tw]1112394760566853632[/tw]

That was De Jong who made the first pass.

 

[Campos]

Has anybody watched the Ajax - PSV game? Ajax won 3:1, De Jong played quite well in my opinion, indirectly setting up/contributing to two of the three Ajax goals with nice forward through passes that were very accurate.

De Ligt on the other hand was meh in my opinion, was caught behind Luuk De Jong when he headed the PSV goal into the net.

Whole team was mehh.
Was a collective bad game. Slow ball circulation the whole game. Unnecessary red card.

Don't know why Ten Hag played with 6 defenders the last few minutes.
Never seen Ajax done that. But hey, it worked i guess.

Frenkie need to shoot more often. Hey can do better than this.

 

[Campos]

IMHO both of them were quite meh. De Jong is a huge talent but he needs to improve in the final third (especially his final pass) if he want's to succeed here. I am 100% sure his best position is DM and not CM like some members here are claiming.

Don't think it was a fault of De Ligt to be honest.

Onana should have had the ball.
De Ligt just counted on his keeper. But Onana didn't do shit.

I think Frenkie wil start as DM first. He need to work on his attacking output.

 

[Havesaks]

Didn't watch the game, but ajax won 3-1 over PSV, with 10 men scoring 2 goals they couldn't have been that meh?

 

[tacticvarium]

Yep red card killed the game but Schwaab helped Ajax with that stupid penalty.

What worries me is the fact that both Arthur and De Jong have simmilar qualites but lack same things. Both of them are strong on the ball and have perfect short pass but both of them also lack that final pass and they don't shoot the ball at all. I hope they will work on that. Maybe pairing both of them with Coutinho is the way to go. As I already wrote in Cou thread he is the only midfielder (he is not a LW) in our current squad who can make perfect final pass in the final third and who can alongside Rakitic shoot the ball from distance. It makes me sick that Valverde doesn't know how to use him properly.

That's what makes Aleñá unique among the midfielder talents we have and I would also give that attacking responsibility to Aleñá instead of Coutinho.
Coutinho will highly likely leave Barça sooner or later hence we have to develop Aleñá for the future.
And I believe he is already prepared to face more challenges.

 

[xXKonan]

[tw]1112458809040138242[/tw]

 

[YodaMaster]

2006:
Rijkaard played with 2 thugs in midfield and only 1 light guy.
He dropped too attacking RB Belletti for a CB Oleguer. We weren't prone to counters and we got more strength in the air while defending.
We had 2 players in attack who can score with feet and HEAD: Etoo and Larsson (and Ronaldinho somewhat).
What happened? We WON a CL after we moved away from our basics which are usually not working in a CL.

After your famous "Rijkaard wasn't a Cruyfffsta" bullshit quote, which showed how ignorant you are about that Rijkaard era and the Rijkaard-Cruyff relationship, now you're back with same bullshit but different wording lol. I'm gonna call you on your bullshit again dear BBZ.

Rijkaard's 2 CM's were Xavi and Deco. Xavi got injured during the season and that's when both Van Bommel and Edmilson (+ Motta, a Busquets type DM) got to start more alongside Deco in the midfield trio. But you're such a funny clown BBZ. I already told you many times that Iniesta was already an important player that season.




Round of 16 1st leg: away vs Chelsea:

Valdes

Oleguer
Puyol
Marquez
Van Bronckhorst

Edmilson
Motta
Deco

Messi
Eto'o
Ronaldinho

Team was losing 1-0 then Rijkaard subs Larsson in for Motta and team plays in with 4 forwards and 2 midfielders who are Deco and Edmilson. Barca scores 2 goals and wins 1-2. Iniesta replaces Deco in the last 10 mins.


2nd leg vs Chelsea at home:

Víctor Valdés

Oleguer
Márquez
Puyol
Van Bronckhorst

Motta

Edmílson
Deco

Eto'o
Ronaldinho
Messi





2006 CL QF: away vs Benfica:

Víctor Valdés 


Belletti

Oleguer

Motta

Van Bronckhorst


Van Bommel
Deco
Iniesta



Larsson
Eto'o
Ronaldinho



2006 CL QF: home vs Benfica:


Víctor Valdés

Belletti
Puyol
Oleguer 

Van Bronckhorst

Van Bommel
Deco
Iniesta



Larsson
Eto'o
Ronaldinho



Barca's 2006 starting 11 in SF vs Milan (home):

Víctor Valdés

Belletti
Márquez
Puyol
Van Bronckhorst

Edmílson
Deco
Iniesta

Giuly
Eto'o
Ronaldinho


2006 Barca vs Milan (away):

Víctor Valdés (GA)

Oleguer
Márquez
Puyol
Van Bronckhorst

Edmílson
Van Bommel
Iniesta

Giuly
Eto'o
Ronaldinho

PS: Deco was suspended that day.





AND THEN the finale vs Arsenal, the obvious best team that season with Barcelona. I remember perfectly this game like it was yesterday, it is unforgettable for any real Barca fan.


Starting 11:

Víctor Valdés

Oleguer
Márquez
Puyol
Van Bronckhorst

Motta

Edmílson
Deco

Eto'o
Ronaldinho
Messi




What do we have ? 7 CL knockouts games. Xavi was injured for all 7 of these games. Edmilson + Van Bommel/Motta started 4 games. In one of these 4 games, Deco was suspended so there was no choice. So it leaves 3 games out of 7 in which Rijkaard decided to start 2 more defensive/physical players (2 games vs Chelsea + final vs Paris where Iniesta played the whole 2nd half and shone). In 2 of these 3 games, Rijkaard saw that it wasn't working and took out one of the 2 'workhorses' and Barca won with so-called 'light' midfield.

So where does your imaginary "Rijkaard played and won the CL with 2 workhorses in midfield" idea come from ? Straight from your ass I guess, like always.

And I still have nothing personal against you BBZ, like always. I just call bullshit when I see it. You don't seem to know jack shit about Rijkaard's era Barcelona. This is already the 3rd time in one month that your full of bullshit messages show it.

The truth is that Rijkaard played with a more defensive minded midfield in away games. So did Guardiola, who used to play Keita and Touré in complicated away games.

And even I, a complete Cruyffista-Pepista, am pushing for Vidal to play in high tough away games in CL.

Imo:
1. we wouldn't have won a CL in 2009 with a good refereeing
(...)
2009, we had like 5 penalties against Chelsea in our favor.

Before spreading bullshit propaganda from Madrid and England, go rewatch both leg of that opposition vs Chelsea in 2009.
Or watch this video.

The refs (of both games) did a lot of mistakes. But they weren't only against Chelsea.
Barca got robbed in these 2 games too. All in all, both teams suffered equally from ref mistakes. Barca a little bit more actually because Abidal received a red for a pure dive from Anelka with 0 contact.

Stop your bullshit BBZ. You're already a big clown here, and it only gets worse every time you let your imagination rewrite history.

 

[George_Costanza]

Before spreading bullshit propaganda from Madrid and England, go rewatch both leg of that opposition vs Chelsea in 2009.
Or watch this video.


The refs (of both games) did a lot of mistakes. But they weren't only against Chelsea.
Barca got robbed in these 2 games too. All in all, both teams suffered equally from ref mistakes. Barca a little bit more actually because Abidal received a red for a pure dive from Anelka with 0 contact.

Stop your bullshit BBZ. You're already a big clown here, and it only gets worse every time you let your imagination rewrite history.

I remember the first leg at Camp Nou. Chelsea couldn't go toe-to-toe with Barca. They didn't even try to counter, They feared our ability, refused to try anything offensively, and that was so pathetic.

We missed clear cut chances, Henry and Eto'o should have scored, Bojan should have too and we didn't get the sure PK. We should have won it by at least 3 goals.

Barcelona Chelsea
Shots (on Goal) 19(6) 3(1)
Fouls 7 20
Corner Kicks 10 2
Offsides 4 2
Time of Possession 71% 29%

 

[Vilarrubi]

[tw]1112458809040138242[/tw]

Quality stuff.