11 - Ousmane Dembélé - V1

[Jamezdin]

Players need to keep performing to earn their place. Dembele isnt playing well and the goals are doing little to mask that from the coach and the supporters

Rafinha isn't performing though, he looks completely out of place. Was bad against Real Madrid, wasn't benched. Was atrocious against Rayo, we'll see what happens in the CL midweek. Wouldn't be surprised he starts again. Valverde actually thinking that Rafinha out of all the players he has at his disposal is the one to deputise for Messi while he's on the sidelines is IMO a pretty damning indictment on his decision making.

If you want the team to be picked on merit and performance, an honest approach is a must. There were extended periods during last season where Rakitic was heavily underperforming, yet he started week in week out. Suarez also. It is very clear that there are players who have preferential treatment for whatever reason.

 

[Maxim4]

complete statistics of Dembélé.

 

[Maxim4]

Barcelona will play with their 3rd jersey against Milan!

 

[denn]

Lel.
Rafinha doesn't bring anything to a team

1. midfielder
2. possession
3. being good in simple passes
4. midfield balance
5. workrate
6. defending
7. not being a turnover machine
8. being good in link up play
9. understanding Barca's movement in possession style tactics
10. player's IQ and decisions
11. motivation, professionalism

More or less, Rafinha brings more than Dembele in every single of those.

On the other hand:
1. occasional magic
2. dribbles
3. pace
Demebele is better in those.
But football is much more complicated than that.

Let me just remind you to this nonsense LMAOO

 

[Messigician]

Let me just remind you to this nonsense LMAOO

Implying Dembele has been any better

 

[El Trencaxarxes]

Implying Dembele has been any better

Hasn't he?

Notice that Dembélé does a far better job at creating good goalscoring opportunities than Coutinho (and Rafinha obviously) does. Coutinho would have been expected to score more often than Dembélé so far, yet they have exactly the same number of goals. Now, this doesn't actually indicate that Coutinho isn't doing a good job at converting his chances. Au contraire, so far Coutinho has actually scored more goals than you could expect him to. What it indicates, however, is that Dembélé is really dangerous in front of goal and doesn't need much more than half a chance to get his name on the scoresheet. This is also well reflected in his conversion rate:

Obviously, this is still from a relatively small sample size, but it very well mirrors what I found when I compared other wingers to Dembélé. Not only is Dembélé one of the most productive wingers around - especially considering his age - he is also one of the most efficient ones, with only Kylian Mbappé, Bernardo Silva and Sadio Mané having a better non-penalty conversion rate than him amongst the players I compared him to. As an example, his conversion rate is nearly twice as good as that of Lorenzo Insigne, who scores a considerable number of goals every season (7 in 10 Serie A matches so far this season).

Dembélé can be extremely frustrating to watch at times, but his world-class talent is anything but up for discussion. You don't have 20 caps for the reigning World champion at age 21 if you're not something special.

 

[Messigician]

Hasn't he?

Notice that Dembélé does a far better job at creating good goalscoring opportunities than Coutinho (and Rafinha obviously) does. Coutinho would have been expected to score more often than Dembélé so far, yet they have exactly the same number of goals. Now, this doesn't actually indicate that Coutinho isn't doing a good job at converting his chances. Au contraire, so far Coutinho has actually scored more goals than you could expect him to. What it indicates, however, is that Dembélé is really dangerous in front of goal and doesn't need much more than half a chance to get his name on the scoresheet. This is also well reflected in his conversion rate:

Obviously, this is still from a relatively small sample size, but it very well mirrors what I found when I compared other wingers to Dembélé. Not only is Dembélé one of the most productive wingers around - especially considering his age - he is also one of the most efficient ones, with only Kylian Mbappé, Bernardo Silva and Sadio Mané having a better non-penalty conversion rate than him amongst the players I compared him to. As an example, his conversion rate is nearly twice as good as that of Lorenzo Insigne, who scores a considerable number of goals every season (7 in 10 Serie A matches so far this season).

Dembélé can be extremely frustrating to watch at times, but his world-class talent is anything but up for discussion. You don't have 20 caps for the reigning World champion at age 21 if you're not something special.

He plays at Barcelona lol. We would make anyone score and create chances it doesn't mean they are playing well. Coutunho is also in bad form, Dembele is scoring but his hold up play and ball retention is bad

 

[El Trencaxarxes]

He plays at Barcelona lol. We would make anyone score and create chances it doesn't mean they are playing well. Coutunho is also in bad form, Dembele is scoring but his hold up play and ball retention is bad

If we would make anyone score and create chances, then why is Rafinha doing both so much worse than Dembélé is? His ball retention is subpar, sure, but there's not a world of difference between him, Coutinho and Rafinha in that aspect. I've already touched upon this earlier in the thread. And no, you're right. Creating chances and scoring goals don't necessarily mean that he is playing well. But if he's creating better goalscoring opportunities than Coutinho and Rafinha, scoring at a higher rate and converting his chances better when he's playing poorly then surely he isn't that bad of a footballer? Imagine how good he could be with more consistent playing time and a system that utilises him better than the current one.

 

[Messigician]

If we would make anyone score and create chances, then why is Rafinha doing both so much worse than Dembélé is? His ball retention is subpar, sure, but there's not a world of difference between him, Coutinho and Rafinha in that aspect. I've already touched upon this earlier in the thread. And no, you're right. Creating chances and scoring goals don't necessarily mean that he is playing well. But if he's creating better goalscoring opportunities than Coutinho and Rafinha, scoring at a higher rate and converting his chances better when he's playing poorly then surely he isn't that bad of a footballer? Imagine how good he could be with more consistent playing time and a system that utilises him better than the current one.

Even Rafinha scored against inter though proving my point.

Anyway Dembele isnt awful but he cost crazy money and if he wants to be a better not awful isn't good enough. Needs to be at his El Clasico level consistently in order to remain in the side we cannot start him when he plays bad it is not a good thing to do and EV knows this.

 

[FCBfan22]

Even Rafinha scored against inter though proving my point.

Anyway Dembele isnt awful but he cost crazy money and if he wants to be a better not awful isn't good enough. Needs to be at his El Clasico level consistently in order to remain in the side we cannot start him when he plays bad it is not a good thing to do and EV knows this.

Yeah and he played Suarez, who couldn't even score sitzers last year from October to mid December straight. He played Pique this year when we were concieding because of him left right and center.

He knows.

 

[El Trencaxarxes]

Even Rafinha scored against inter though proving my point.

Anyway Dembele isnt awful but he cost crazy money and if he wants to be a better not awful isn't good enough. Needs to be at his El Clasico level consistently in order to remain in the side we cannot start him when he plays bad it is not a good thing to do and EV knows this.

Your point is demonstrably wrong, though. Dembélé is a lot more productive than Rafinha, whether you look at generating good goalscoring opportunities or converting goalscoring opportunities. And that's been the case throughout all of their respective careers.

So what if he cost crazy money? He didn't decide that. We did. We decided to spend that kind of money on him, so not betting on him to perform and become a star definitely seems like a good way to ensure that that money looks more like wasted money than like a proper investment.

Rafinha has a lot to offer and is a good player. Defensively he's head and shoulders above Dembélé and generally does a better job in the buildup phase of the game than Dembélé. But trying to neglect the massive difference in offensive output is dumb in my opinion. Dembélé performs insanely well in the last third of the pitch, even when he plays poorly and looks out of place. The numbers really speak for themselves.

 

[Potroh]

Creating chances and scoring goals don't necessarily mean that he is playing well.

Scratching my elderly head, because if "creating chances and scoring goals don't necessarily mean that he is playing well" then I have no idea about who is supposed to play well, I mean among attackers.
Is the player in Barca's "possession based" dull and boring style the really appreciated hero who makes 456 meaningless passes when the closest player is not within 10 meters???

Suarez does nothing else but scores goals, nobody really expects him to do anything else, CR7 does the same and I carefully watched all PSG matches this year, where one can easily observe that Mbappe scores a lot of goals but perhaps he is losing more balls than Dembele does.
I would be also curious about Messi's statistics, because I'm not certain he doesn't lose the same quantity of balls...

 

[Horatio]

Scratching my elderly head, because if "creating chances and scoring goals don't necessarily mean that he is playing well" then I have no idea about who is supposed to play well, I mean among attackers.

I think an attacker have other qualities besides those. From the top of my head: creating danger. Even when not scoring if said player poses a lot of threat, he will draw defenders and open space for the other attackers.

 

[El Trencaxarxes]

I would be also curious about Messi's statistics, because I'm not certain he doesn't lose the same quantity of balls...

There's very little difference. What I found, when I looked into it, was that most of our offensive players have less than nine touches on average before losing ball either through a misplaced pass, an unsuccessful touch or being tackled. These were the numbers that I got from WhoScored.com:
Luis Suárez - 4,2 touches per lost ball
Munir - 4,7 touches per lost ball
Ousmane Dembélé - 4,8 touches per lost ball
Lionel Messi - 5,7 touches per lost ball
Philippe Coutinho - 6,8 touches per lost ball
Rafinha - 7,9 touches per lost ball

It's not a number that can mean a whole lot on its own though. Bear in mind that you can also look at how many touches each player on average has before completing an offensive action like a successful dribble, a shot on target, a goal, a key pass and things like that. While Messi may have fewer touches on the ball for every ball he loses than Rafinha, it's important to remember that Messi also has a lot fewer touches on the ball for every dribble or through ball he completes or every goal he scores. You could naturally argue that Rafinha would be better to have on the field if you want to retain possession, but you also have to remember that you lose a lot of creative capacity by choosing Rafinha over Dembélé.

 

[El Trencaxarxes]

I think an attacker have other qualities besides those. From the top of my head: creating danger. Even when not scoring if said player poses a lot of threat, he will draw defenders and open space for the other attackers.

Of course, but if you score goals and create chances it naturally goes without saying that you also "create danger." I think most teams would be a lot more comfortable with Rafinha having the ball at the edge of their box than Dembélé having the ball at the edge of their box. Dembélé has proven that he is a threat from distance, that he can run at the defence, that he can shoot well with both feet, that he can create something from absolutely nothing ... while it would be stupid not to have any fear as a defender when facing Rafinha, I think 99 out of a 100 defenders would much rather face him than Dembélé.