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BBZ8800
Senior Member
We kinda know, if you come trolling that Neymar should win it instead of Messi, you'll rightly get banned
I say that because I just saw your sig and remembered who you are.
I don't mean anything bad, but some of us felt the similar way when people said that Ney is already better than Ronnie or Etoo in their prime.
For example, you like Messi a lot, I guess (your nickname is Mehssi here), but for example, this is my prediction:
1. at first it was:
-- Messi is a Goat, Ney is in Top5 players in the world
2. currently people here are saying:
-- Messi is a Goat, Ney is the 2nd best player in the world
3. now imagine 2-3 years from now, if Messi will decline and if Ney will develop further, people will start to say:
-- Neymar is the best player in the world, Messi is not the best anymore
4. and then, imagine if Neymar will be the best in the world for 2-3 years and if Barca will win some CLs, new generation of fans will start to say:
= omg, Neymar is the best player who has ever lived on Earth, he is a goat, he is better than Messi at his prime
So, not all fans will say that, but Neyfans and some younger fans who will start to watch football in 2015 or 2018, and who will see only Neymar skills, and who weren't able to witness Messi in his golden years, and those guys will just repeat all the time: Ney is the best player ever
I have witnessed the same scenario a lot of times till now, and people/media/fans every time hail the new player more and more.
And the new guy always seems to be "even better" than the last superstar.
For example, when I started to watch football, Maradona was considered as the best player ever.
1. so, it was Maradona, as a no1
2. then, Brasilian Ronaldo, Il Phenomeno emerged, and suddenly, after only 2 world class seasons, all the media were saying:
"Ronaldo is the best player who has ever lived"
3. sadly, he suffered horrible injuries, and then Zidane emerged
-- now, people weren't exactly saying that Zidane is the best ever, but suddenly he was world's number 1, and people said that he is almost as good as Maradona, or at least in top3-4 ever with: Maradona, Brasilian Ronaldo and Pele
4. then Ronaldinho emerged around 2003-2004-2005, in the same period when Zidane started to decline, and the world needed "a new champion", a new superstar
Yes, Ronnie was awesome, but guess what? He was again hailed as the best player in the world, and if not the best ever, then at least one out of top 2-3 players ever with Maradona and Pele
-- so, you see, when Ronnie emerged, Brasilian Ronaldo and Zidane were forgotten very fast, and they dropped from top3 ever
5. then Ronnie started to party and lost his form, and the world needed a new star
-- luckily, young Messi was emerging back then
-- guess what? =omg, this is the best player who has ever lived (well, I agree with that remark this time, but you see, media and fans are using that stupid remark each 2-3-4 years for any new world class player)
-- Messi was now hailed as the greatest ever, and Zidane and Brasilian Ronaldo were dropping more and more on eternal Top 3 list
6. then, CR7 emerged, and he is now hailed as a player closest to Messi
-- so, CR7 is not the best ever (even though Real's fans will say that he is the best player ever), but still, he is now considered by a lot of football fans as the 2nd best player who has ever lived (you know that pics, memes and everything: how when Messi and Cr7 will be gone, we will never witness similar wizzards anymore, ever again, lol) (lol is about CR7's part)
-- so, Maradona, Pele, Zidane, Ronnie, Brasilian Ronaldo are again forgotten, and Messi and CR7 are the 2 best players ever
Well, till now, I guess that everyone could have learned the pattern.
Young Ney is emerging, Messi and CR7 are getting older, and Fifa, sponsors and new generation of fans need new idols/heroes.
My prediction is simple, as I wrote above:
-- in 1-2-3 years, people will start to say that Neymar is better than the current Messi
-- and then, a few years after, if Ney will stay on top for 2-3-4 years, new generation of fans will start to say that Neymar on his prime is better than Messi on his prime
And in 5-6-7-8 years, some new gems will emerge, and the next superstar will be "even better" (lol) than Neymar, Messi, Ronnie etc.
Again, I don't mean anything bad, but imo, it is extremely silly and annoying.
And if you are now offended by posts how Ney is better than Messi, well, you will see more and more of those posts over time.
This user is maybe trolling, but there will be more users who will say the same thing in the future.
(And before someone replies: But Ney is better than Etoo, and Ney is NOT better than Messi.
= that is irrelevant
-- you can't measure how good a player is, especially if they played in different eras
But the only thing which is repeating all the time is a silly bias towards current players, as you may experience now and in the future in the new Neygoat vs Messigoat debate.
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JamDav1982
Senior Member
BBZ - no one has been saying Ney is yet better than Ronaldinho in his prime or that goals are the indicator of who id the best players in history.
The biggest lack of respect I heard was from you towards Ronaldinho saying he only won it as FIFA fixed vote against Etoo.
Interestingly you used goals to try and show Etoo was better than Ronaldinho, something barely anyone else has done to judge players overall ability.
You keep trying to repeat this idea that people are rating Messi and Ronaldo above Zidane, Maradona etc because of goals. No one is doing that.
The biggest lack of respect I heard was from you towards Ronaldinho saying he only won it as FIFA fixed vote against Etoo.
Interestingly you used goals to try and show Etoo was better than Ronaldinho, something barely anyone else has done to judge players overall ability.
You keep trying to repeat this idea that people are rating Messi and Ronaldo above Zidane, Maradona etc because of goals. No one is doing that.
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BBZ8800
Senior Member
You are now picking some random straws, while, imo, my theory from above is more or less true.
** Please stop about this Ronnie and Etoo thing. I am not saying that Etoo was overally a better player.
Etoo was, imo and by some media, the best Barca's player in 2004-05 Season. Not because of goals, but because of everything. He was leading and saving our team in 100s of cases.
In that year there was that scandal with Ballon D or, and even Etoo said that if he was a Brasilian, people and sponsors would hail him more and he would win Ballon'd'or.
In general, Ronnie was better over the whole career.
But in 2004-05, imo, they were at least equal (in Barca. Maybe Ronnie's WC 2002 helped in that decision).
** Also, if you don't believe to what I am saying about 2004-05 Season, I have found some threads from two sport's forums from 2006.
So, the year is 2006, when Ronnie improved a lot, and we won a CL in that year.
So, in 2006, Ronnie was already better than Etoo (imo), and look what people were saying in those days, most of them still thought that Etoo should win Ballon'd'or in 2006.
Also, you will see some comments about 2005 also:
[video]http://www.xtratime.org/forum/showthread.php?t=201520[/video]
[video]http://forums.bigsoccer.com/threads/balon-dor.443271/[/video]
So, you see, this is a classic example of revisionism
Ronnie is today considered as some kind of a player who was by far the best player back then, while most of football fans in 2004-2005-2006 thought that Ronnie and Etoo were more or less equal.
Anyway, you'll see in these topics.
** I just wanted to write to Mehssi how he and other fans will experience the same thing over time: each new world's superstar will be hailed as even better than the players from 5-10 years ago.
You'll see.
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JamDav1982
Senior Member
There was no scandal in 04/05 at all.
For that to be the case FIFA had to be influencing the view of fans, players, journalists all of wh voted Ronaldinho best in world across various votes.
Nothing at all to do with Etoo being African as you haveade put in past. Most likely FIFA would love an African to have won it back then.
As for the latest Superstar always being seen as the best I don't agree with that at all. There were barely any modern players backed in FIFA century vote for example and the vast majority of opinion has never put anyone ahead of Maradona/Pele until now Messi is here.
You will rarely ever hear Ronaldo mentioned in best ever debate other than some deluded fans from Real or Man Utd who can't accept Messi is better.
For that to be the case FIFA had to be influencing the view of fans, players, journalists all of wh voted Ronaldinho best in world across various votes.
Nothing at all to do with Etoo being African as you haveade put in past. Most likely FIFA would love an African to have won it back then.
As for the latest Superstar always being seen as the best I don't agree with that at all. There were barely any modern players backed in FIFA century vote for example and the vast majority of opinion has never put anyone ahead of Maradona/Pele until now Messi is here.
You will rarely ever hear Ronaldo mentioned in best ever debate other than some deluded fans from Real or Man Utd who can't accept Messi is better.
Barcalove
Banned
No one has ever hailed the players you mentioned as the best player ever lived, not even in Brazil, nobody ever said that ronaldo or ronaldinho, were better than Pelé,Maradona,Garrincha and a lot of legends in the past, your argument is full of flaws, Messi isnt hailed as GOAT because sponsors needs new idols, but because he played and is playing in the highest Level for more than 10 years, who ever did that? only legends, so what Messi is ? A legend.
And neymar will never be hailed as Goat, he can win a Ballon d'or when messi declines, but he will never reach Messi levels of consistency and awards, you forgot how many times messi was the best in the world at neymar age?
And neymar will never be hailed as Goat, he can win a Ballon d'or when messi declines, but he will never reach Messi levels of consistency and awards, you forgot how many times messi was the best in the world at neymar age?
Jadentheman
Active member
I think BBZ is just saying the truth. In the future Messi's name will be in the record books, but he'll only be noticed as a passing glance while some other guy will be praised currently playing.
Yeah he's up there with Pele and Maradona, but don't expect him to be mentioned daily or have these shitty social media tweets and pics of stat breakdowns and all that of him.
Yeah he's up there with Pele and Maradona, but don't expect him to be mentioned daily or have these shitty social media tweets and pics of stat breakdowns and all that of him.
BBZ8800
Senior Member
Rofl.
My argument is full of flaws?
I am just telling you what the media was saying over the years.
Ronaldo, the Brasilian?
= hasn't the whole world saying that he is the best ever around 97-98'?
Zidane?
= well magazines like Marca, Goal and others were saying back then that he is among top 3-4 greatest players ever
Ronaldinho, come on now...
= everyone remembers Joga bonita and Ronaldihno and articles how no player in the world ever played that good and that "pretty" in the same time. His move were "the most beautiful and fun" moves ever seen on football pitch...
-- and I was reading internet versions of El mudno deportivo and Sport every morning around 2004-2005-2006-2007, and there were 100s of articles how Ronaldinho is the greatest or at least, one of the 3 greatest players who has ever lived (especially AFTER 2006)
Messi
= well, we know Messi's story
CR7?
= do you not read comments outside of Barca's forum?
-- some fans are claiming that he is even better than Messi in general
-- and if not, then still in top 2-3-5 players who has ever lived (and even that claim is just lol)
Seriously, have you even read at least 1-2 pages of this topic which I posted?
http://www.xtratime.org/forum/showthread.php?t=201520
You can see that from regular football fans, Etoo had even more votes than Ronnie back then (that wasn't Barca's forum).
My point is (and you can see the same comment from some people back in 2006), that if, for example, you have Ronnie, Etoo, Henry:
-- and if majority of fans think that they are equal or something, and yet, only Ronnie is earning the awards again and again (and the same was happening with Zidane and Brasilian Ronaldo before him)
You are now talking about that word "scandal"
-- well, of course that French Football, who was the organizer back then, is not telling to journalists for whom to vote (even though, you never know, some votes can be bought, this is Fifa and money)
The problem was, that whenever (in late 90's and early 00's), if you had 4-5 players who were equally as good, and if none of them was much better than the rest (like Messi and CR7 today), then French football/Fifa, whoever, would always just give the award to the same old guys.
So, if 5 guys were equally as good=let's give it to Zidane again
If 5 guys were equally as good again in the next year=ok, let's give it to Zidane again
I mean, even in 2006, in FIfa's world player of the year, winners were: 1. Cannavaro, 2. Zidane (lol) 3. Ronaldinho
-- in 2006, Barca won La liga, Barca won a CL, Etoo was the best striker in the world
-- and Zidane played good for 2 weeks on the world cup (and lost)
-- and then you have FIFA and their way of deciding who is the best, and hmmmm, let's give a 2nd place to=good old Zidane who was crap for 11 and a half Months
That is the problem.
Just look at that topic from back then, where you can read the opinions from back then.
Further, in that topic you can see what I am claiming all the time: back then (till 2006), Ronnie and Etoo were treated among football fans as almost 50:50 equally as good players.
But for some reason, over time, Ronnie is now considered as (by far) the best player of 2003-2007 era.
Again, please, just read that topic for 10 minutes and try to see what both Barca's fans and random football fans were saying.
Most of the guys were saying: Etoo should win the award for 2006.
Now, my question is:
-- if, for example, most of football fans agree that Etoo or XX player is the best in the world, and then French Football or Fifa (and their journalists) decide the best is Cannavaro or, lol, Zidane again, don't you think that there is a difference in opinions between fans and those people who gives awards?
And again, I don't know how well you are remembering those days, but it happened a lot of times.
Fans think one way, and awards go to some 100th person, the same old (like Zidane and Ronnie back then).
And you will now say that I said that Zidane or Ronnie didn't deserve those trophies.
Well, they DID deserve it let's say in 2 years, but then, after that, even if they weren't the best anymore Fifa (or sponsors? Zidane was the main posterboy of Adidas and Ronnie was the main posterboy of Nike) were just getting the awards over and over forever.
And please, I adore Ronnie, but he was not considered as THAT good back in 2004 or 2006.
Imo, back then it was like: Ronnie (skills) 98, Etoo 95, Henry 95 etc
While today, with revisionism and 10 years after, it usually sounds like: Ronnie 200, Henry 95, Etoo 90 etc...
One more time, please take a look at that topic what fans were saying back in 2006 (that Etoo should win the awards, plus how Etoo and Ronnie were almost equally as popular among football fans back then, unlike now)
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Kerrybai
New member
Nah Messi is an exception, it will be 30 years before we see someone like him again, it took a long time for someone as good as Maradona to arrive, the same will happen with Messi.
You mentioned that in 5-10 years time people will be saying such and such is the best ever, but how does that makes sense? Only 2 players prior to Messi have ever been considered the best ever ( Pele, Maradona ) Which player in the past 10 years was considered better than Maradona may I ask?
Such a weird contradiction, you say he will be up there with Pele and Maradona but he'll only be a passing glance? The legend of Pele and Maradona will never die, and if Messi is up there with them then his legend will never die either. Maradona will never be a passing glance.
You, I and everyone else will be telling our grandchildren about Messi. He's just turning 28 and the majority of the football watching population hail him as the greatest or at least top 3 of all time.
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Vlom
Previously known as Mehssi
I completely disagree [MENTION=16942]BBZ8800[/MENTION] you and I both know that R10 and Eto'o are uncomparable to Messi, not only for his magic, goals and trophies, but because of how long he lasted, he is rightly hailed as the GOAT, and that won't change because raheem sterling suddenly scores 50goals a season, they might compare scorers to CR, but not to Messi, of course there will be hype, but that hype would have to last at the top level for 15years to be able to make an argument that newshinything > Messi.
His legacy in spanish football and barcelona is only comparable to DiStefano in RM, and DS is still a legend, no culé at least will ever put any new player above messi unless they bring us 4, 5 or 6 CL trophies so yeah, I think there's time
Let's not forget that unlike R10 and Etoo, Messi is also leaving his name not only in our minds but at the top of every possible chart and on every possible club football record there is, and will retire with 6 or more Ballon d'Ors to his name, so there's that too.
His legacy in spanish football and barcelona is only comparable to DiStefano in RM, and DS is still a legend, no culé at least will ever put any new player above messi unless they bring us 4, 5 or 6 CL trophies so yeah, I think there's time
Let's not forget that unlike R10 and Etoo, Messi is also leaving his name not only in our minds but at the top of every possible chart and on every possible club football record there is, and will retire with 6 or more Ballon d'Ors to his name, so there's that too.
BBZ8800
Senior Member
I completely disagree [MENTION=16942]BBZ8800[/MENTION] you and I both know that R10 and Eto'o are uncomparable to Messi, not only for his magic, goals and trophies, but because of how long he lasted, he is rightly hailed as the GOAT, and that won't change because raheem sterling suddenly scores 50goals a season, they might compare scorers to CR, but not to Messi, of course there will be hype, but that hype would have to last at the top level for 15years to be able to make an argument that newshinything > Messi.
His legacy in spanish football and barcelona is only comparable to DiStefano in RM, and DS is still a legend, no culé at least will ever put any new player above messi unless they bring us 4, 5 or 6 CL trophies so yeah, I think there's time
Let's not forget that unlike R10 and Etoo, Messi is also leaving his name not only in our minds but at the top of every possible chart and on every possible club football record there is, and will retire with 6 or more Ballon d'Ors to his name, so there's that too.
Firstly, I will repeat that from time to time, so that readers won't think that I AM ACTUALLY implying that someone will be better than Messi.
So, my opinion is that Messi IS the best player ever.
But my point is, in the last 15-20 years since when I am watching football, hype, awards and everything, there WERE players who weren't the greatest ever, but were hyped for some periods as being the best ever, or at least very close to it, while now 10-20 years, we don't rate them that high anymore.
This post asks the same thing, so I will reply beneath it:
Again, yes, in Messi's case, all the hype makes sense, I agree.
But in the last 20 years, I have witnessed at least a few cases when the hype was unreal in those days.
For example, if you have checked the thread I posted in previous posts, you would see/remember that there is one opinion in one moment (For example, Etoo was hailed as almost as good as Ronnie in 2004-2006, but today, people forgot that, and suddenly it seems as if Ronnie was much better than everyone else back then :/).
I will try to explain my point in numbers.
-- let's say that player's greatness can be measured in numbers from 1-200 (it can't be measured, but let's try to measure it)
-- and this is how the story went from how I remember it:
1. let's imagine that Maradona has 180 skills out of 200
-- and Pele also 180 out of 200
-- in 1995, they were considered as the best players who have ever lived
-- and media back then was saying: no one will ever achieve their greatness
2. and then suddenly around 1996-1997, Brasilian Ronaldo emerged
-- and now, here is the trick
-- TODAY, he is NOT considered as good as Maradona or Pele, because we are taking into account everything that happened later during his career (so, revisionism again)
-- but back in 1996-1997-1998, every newspaper was saying: Il Phenomeno, the greatest player who ever played football. No player in the world had similar potential and abilities. And prior to 1998, everyone were saying that Ronaldo is already the greatest ever, and that he is better (or at least that he has more potential) than Maradona and Pele
-- so, around 1998, the all-time list looked like:
1. Ronaldo 200/200 points
2. Maradona 180
3. Pele 180
-- but then Ronaldo suffered an unknown seizure attack before World cup final in 1998, and he was a ghost walking on a field that night
-- so, till that night, he was "il Phenomeno" and an alien
-- that was the first time when something "bad" happened in his career and some started to raise questions whether he is really the greatest ever
-- after that, he suffered horrible knee injuries, he was sidelined for 2 and a half years, and then the hype around him started to fade
-- he returned to the field, won a World cup in 2002, and some titles with Real, but in general, he never achieved the number of titles expected from him back in 1996-1998
-- and now, my point is:
-- in 1996-1998, EVERYONE was saying: he is the best footballer ever
-- and then, 10 years after, "people" changed their mind, and he turned into=an awesome player who's career was plagued with injuries
-- so, you see, from a 200/200 player in 1996-1998', and from the best player ever, he turned into one of the top 5-10 players ever
-- so, in one moment he was the best ever, but after 2000-2005, he wasn't considered as the best ever anymore
= which is funny
= also, suddenly, "everyone" forgot how they used to hype him a few years ago (revisionism)
3. let's move further:
-- when Ronaldo suffered injuries and a seizure in 1998' final, France won a first WC ever, and the new king was born
-- Zidane
-- back then, France was the first team in the history which won 2 major tournaments back to back (World cup 1998 and Euro 2000)
-- now, add to this that it was a millenium, and all papers were full of 100s of top lists of the century, in music, movies, sports, everything
-- in those days, Real Madrid was hailed as BY FAR the best team in world's history, and all of their players were hailed as aliens
-- now, sum these things:
-- France won World cup 1998 and Euro 2000, Zidane was their best player
-- Real was the best team of the century
-- Zidane was the record-fee transfer in a history
-- Zidane scored a winning goal in CL final in 2002 against Bayer Leverkusen
-- he scored 2 goals in 1998' World cup final
-- and now, people discussed on our forum a few months ago, who is better: Zidane or Iniesta
-- well, if you lived in that era...
(Again, I personally don't rate Zidane too high, just to be clear), but as always, the world needed a new hero.
And a hero around 2000' was Zidane.
-- he was hailed back then by all media as the greatest midfielder of all time, and imo, back then, the list of the best players of all time looked something like:
1. Maradona 180
2. Pele 180
3. Zidane 170
4. Brasilian Ronaldo 150
-- so, you see, Brasilian Ronaldo dropped from 200/200 to 150/200, and Zidane was back then in top3 players of all time
4. let's move further
-- around 2004-2007, our Ronaldinho emerged
-- Barca became the best team in Europe, but more important, we played the most beautiful and yet efficient football
-- guess what? In those years a lot of papers were saying that Ronnie is the best player ever
-- or, in the worst case scenario, something like:
1. Maradona 180
2. Pele 180
3. Ronaldinho 170
-- the funny thing again is, in the moment when Ronaldinho emerged and since media "pushed" him into the top3, Zidane was dropped lower (revisionism again)
-- so, a few years ago, it was: Maradona 180, Pele 180, Zidane 170
-- now it turned into:
1. Maradona 180, 2. Pele 180, 3. Ronaldinho 170, and Zidane dropped lower and suddenly he was rated something like Brasilian Ronaldo at 150-ish points
(My point is: in the moment when player plays, he is hailed much more, and as soon as a new star emerges, that previous player is hailed much less and suddenly people rate their whole career much less, and they overhype the new star)
After Ronnie, who was in Top3 back then, young Messi emerged.
-- Messi jumped to 200/200 points, and guess what, Ronnie's skills were suddenly lowered, and from a top3 player EVER, he dropped (as always) to the same level as former legends, and is now ranked more or less the same as Brasilian Ronaldo and Zidane, at 150-160 points.
Then CR7 also emerged, and you know the story:
-- he is hailed either as the 2nd best player ever, or as one of the top5 players ever
-- again, my prediction is: in a few years when he will stop playing, he won't be hailed as the 2nd best player ever, or as one out of top5 players ever.
-- he will just drop somewhere to the level of Rivaldo, Romario, Cruijff, Brasilian Ronaldo, Zidane, Figo etc
So, this time I am really not talking bad about Neymar or anyone. I am just saying, from my perspective, how media "changes" their overall opinion over years.
And a player who is in one moment hailed as the best ever or one out of top3 ever, is soon turned into (only) a top10 players of all time.
Now, I agree that this WON'T happen with Messi, because he really is the best ever.
But just wait and see how CR7's hype will fade very soon and how a new star (maybe even Ney) will jump on his place into top2 or top5 players ever...
About my original post, my point was:
-- when Messi will stop playing, a part of media and new fans will start to raise questions: whether Ney (or some new superstar) is better than Messi.
Look, people don't live in the past.
Media and sponsors (and young fans) always need new heroes.
I will have to agree now with Jaden:
Do you guys think that people will watch Messi's videos in 2030 or in 2050?
I doubt.
He will be the same as Pele or Maradona today. (I don't watch Pele's videos ever. I watched only some Maradona's goals and that's it. I am not interested in those days, honestly...)
Again, I don't mean anything bad, but if you guys expect that Messi's fame won't fade over time and that younger fans won't ask questions: whether XX player is better than Messi, well, wait and see then.
It doesn't actually mean that some is better than Messi.
But people just do that all the time.
They are forgetting the past very fast, and they are always looking for new stories, new records, new heroes etc.
And then they are degrading older players and slightly overhyping the current players, until the new star emerges, then the previous star is degraded again, and the new guy is overhyped.
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6 Ballons for Messi
but what if he wins 7??
If we give you some kind of forum award will you stop posting like that?
TornAndFrayed
Banned
Germany (west) did so, among other teams.
JamDav1982
Senior Member
BBZ - how did the FIFA conspiracy for Ronaldinho to win work?
Did they advise journalists, players, fans, managers and captains to vote this way.
That is literally hundreds of people, none of whom have ever said they were told how to vote by FIFA.
You act like some forums prove Etoo was more highly regarded than Ronaldinho at time. He wasn't at all Ronaldinho was always held up as Barcas best player at that time for the vast majority.
You will always get some people who prefer another player or some who try to be hipsters and tell us the 'real' best player.
Have had similar threads about Xavi/Iniesta being real brains of Barca and more influential than Messi. It means nothing in bigger picture.
As for 'best ever' debate. There has never been any real wide spread debate of any player being up there with Maradona and Pele those players have always had that title with others coming and going rather quickly in debate of possibly being up there.
As I said the FIFA centenary vote had barely any votes for modern day players which proves no one in recent years has really broke into the Maradona/Pele debate in any serious way bar Messi.
Did they advise journalists, players, fans, managers and captains to vote this way.
That is literally hundreds of people, none of whom have ever said they were told how to vote by FIFA.
You act like some forums prove Etoo was more highly regarded than Ronaldinho at time. He wasn't at all Ronaldinho was always held up as Barcas best player at that time for the vast majority.
You will always get some people who prefer another player or some who try to be hipsters and tell us the 'real' best player.
Have had similar threads about Xavi/Iniesta being real brains of Barca and more influential than Messi. It means nothing in bigger picture.
As for 'best ever' debate. There has never been any real wide spread debate of any player being up there with Maradona and Pele those players have always had that title with others coming and going rather quickly in debate of possibly being up there.
As I said the FIFA centenary vote had barely any votes for modern day players which proves no one in recent years has really broke into the Maradona/Pele debate in any serious way bar Messi.
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