10 - Lionel Messi - v5

[Stoichkov1]

People say Messi should play more advanced, but when we tried that he barely saw the ball because our midfield and FBs were getting assfucked and unable to move the ball forward to the final third. That's why he has to drop down deep consistently and is moved away from the goal.

If you want Messi more advanced as an attacker you need to fix the main problem first where our FBs and MFs are able to play a forward pass and escape pressure.

The problem is that Messi now drops deep even when he doesn't need to like against Iceland who had like 20% possession.

 

[blaugrana1987]

Messi definitely is the problem when Suarez has like 4 goals in last 20 CL games. We don't have Neymar anymore. Iniesta got old. Rakitic is useless unless shielded in a 442 and even then don't have any bit of creativity or ball movement forward from the MF, our RB is Sergi Roberto who really isn't a RB, etc.

Yes, Messi is the problem for being marked heavily in the biggest CL games and not pulling a win out of his ass.

I ve criticized Messi a lot for his lack of movement, but it's starting to get crazy now. Reaching a point of insanity.

Messi should play more advanced, but do anyone trust those players to be able to get the ball to him?

Its definitely looking like insanity. Worse still, we won league based on Messis performance. He was comfortably best in EVERY.SINGLE.OFFENSIVE metric. No one was even close to him. He is SOLE reason why Argentina even qualified WC after changing 3 coaches in single campaign.

This is all after Ronaldo had great game against Spain, but was nowhere in last 3 big games in CL, but hey they still won. Lets see Messi wining it when his best attacking partner is own goal.

 

[blaugrana1987]

Ronaldo gives his team mates that option through his movement and he also provides plenty of assists as well.

Messi depends on his team mates as well they all do.

Where was he in half a season where they went -19 in League?

Either he wasnt positioning and moving very well, or his team mates sucked entire time. Either way, he didnt pull it out of the hat, while its expected from Messi to pull it every single game he plays.

Ronaldo can crash out of WC and no one will say a word, Messi needs to emulate Maradona, that was always put above his head.

 

[DonAK]

The problem is that Messi now drops deep even when he doesn't need to like against Iceland who had like 20% possession.

Could it be because Mascherano and Biglia are spending 70% of the possession they have playing sideway passes between themselves?

He wasn't dropping down deep that much when Banega came on and they started finding some rhythm.

 

[JamDav1982]

Could it be because Mascherano and Biglia are spending 70% of the possession they have playing sideway passes between themselves?

Mascherano was their best player yesterday.

He did his job and was switching it trying to find space all the time.

They just need someone to link it up better.

 

[blaugrana1987]

People say Messi should play more advanced, but when we tried that he barely saw the ball because our midfield and FBs were getting assfucked and unable to move the ball forward to the final third. That's why he has to drop down deep consistently and is moved away from the goal.

If you want Messi more advanced as an attacker you need to fix the main problem first where our FBs and MFs are able to play a forward pass and escape pressure.

You have to understand that playing 34yr old Iniesta and Rakitic as main creative hubs for last 3 years is completely rational. Thanks board, Gomez and Paulinho are waiting in shadows as well.

 

[KingMessi]

Could it be because Mascherano and Biglia are spending 70% of the possession they have playing sideway passes between themselves?

He wasn't dropping down deep that much when Banega came on and they started finding some rhythm.

Hopefully they play Lo Celso and Banega gets fit.

 

[Stoichkov1]

Could it be because Mascherano and Biglia are spending 70% of the possession they have playing sideway passes between themselves?

He wasn't dropping down deep that much when Banega came on and they started finding some rhythm.

It also could be because Messi doesn't run behind the defenders and Mascherano and Biglia don't have anyone to pass to. I doubt Biglia is capable of that but Mascherano has showed many times that he can find Messi if Messi isn't lazy and runs behind the defenders like a 9.

 

[serghei]

I don't dispute at all that Ronaldo overall had been far more decisive and clutch than Messi in big games in the last several years, measured by either goals or assists or chances created. I also agree that Ronaldo is a better 9 than Messi is a 10, but that's what I have been saying, this was mostly due to how the two play and how different they are in that department. Ronaldo relies on service pure and simple and he gets a lot of them, quality ones from his teammates, especially at Real Madrid. Messi has to drop deep to both create and finish. Even taking the No.10 role alone, name one player who has created more in big games than Messi please. Or name one player who has created equal number of chances in big games (we can use ratios etc. to measure) as he did in other games. Of course you are going to struggle to create in big games when you are playing much better teams.

The fact of the matter is, Ronaldo only has one role, one hat to wear and he gets adequate support; Messi has multiple roles to play, several hats to wear and he also does not have adequate support in either the service/assist or finishing department.

Sure, if I need someone to win a game I'd pick Ronaldo over Messi because all Ronaldo needs are some accurate crosses into the box and he will get the job done.

What do you mean by elite scorer anyway? Those players who score a lot of goals against elite teams in big games? If so, sure Messi is not. But who is, other than Ronaldo then?

OK.

So we agree Ronaldo is a more consistent and better scorer for the most part of the last 3 years.

You also agree that Ronaldo is a better specialist player than Messi. Meaning he does better as a no9 than Messi does at being a creator from deeper positions. Again, talking about big games.


So, Messi has to drop deep to both create and finish.

First, I don't agree that is true, or at least I don't know how much of that is necessity, and how much is wrong thinking or poor planning. Portugal has a shit midfield and Ronaldo still had many useful balls going his way vs Spain. I think Messi has been poorly used in the last 3 years, by being made to substitute with his individual ability what should've come from tactics first and foremost. The no10 player does no longer exist, because he operates in areas that are now blocked by the other teams with first grade priority, even at the expense of weakening wider areas.

Tell me what's another no10 in world football. The position doesn't exist anymore, because compactness and overloading key areas is more of a general tactic at the moment. You see almost all teams bring more men in dangerous areas, at the cost of leaving the wings open. In the past, teams were more evenly arranged on the horizontal, so marking was more generally loose around every player, with more emphasis on tackling and 1 vs 1 duels as a mean of winning the ball. Now there is nothing like that. Now key areas are approached in 1 vs 2-3 scenarios and ball is won back not by having naturally gifted monster defenders, but by way of arrangement and positioning. Football is a lot more tactical now.

 

[Barca83]

Argentina needs to ditch 4231 and switch to 433 with Messi false 9 and Aguero as an inside forward

Banega, Mascherano, Lo Celso in midfield

Pavon/ADM/Dybala, Messi, Aguero up front

 

[DonAK]

Mascherano was their best player yesterday.

He did his job and was switching it trying to find space all the time.

They just need someone to link it up better.

Yet he's still not the kind of player to link the midfield to the attack which is what they lacked.

At Barça we do have those midfielders, at least in theory, but Iniesta and Rakitic just don't have the ability to escape pressure and link up with the attack anymore.

Which is why having Coutinho and another midfielder would improve our play a lot. If we actually manage that I think we'll stop seeing Messi down around the midcircle because he can actually stay more advanced and receive the ball in those areas. He still need to improve his movement, but that at least makes the team less one dimensional and more dynamic.

Cannot have Messi in advanced positions when the team is unable to move the ball forward.

 

[blaugrana1987]

So much overreaction after one single game where he wasn't even bad, just missed penalty. He HAD to score mind you, but that is definitely valid criticism. His penalties are not good enough.

Had he scored, and Argentina won, we would say "good first game, get win against Croatia and they are through". Meh, they still have 2 games to play. Believe me, Iceland is much worse for Messi and Argentina then Croatia.

 

[serghei]

So much overreaction after one single game where he wasn't even bad, just missed penalty. He HAD to score mind you, but that is definitely valid criticism. His penalties are not good enough.

Had he scored, and Argentina won, we would say "good first game, get win against Croatia and they are through". Meh, they still have 2 games to play. Believe me, Iceland is much worse for Messi and Argentina then Croatia.

Except it's not one single game. We've had this problem with Barcelona as well in CL. Messi marked out, him being kind of lazy, and us not being able to do anything while the other teams score goal after goal.

Plenty of cases that show Messi in a midfield oriented doesn't work against serious opponents, and that he needs to be asigned a clearer position on the field. He's too far off goal, and has too many players that are in a position to block him and crowd him.

 

[eaman]

The problem is that Messi now drops deep even when he doesn't need to like against Iceland who had like 20% possession.

But he did need to drop deep because nothing dangerous was coming from deep. He dropped deep got the ball and made them play better. It was a little better when banega came on and he was finding Messi closer to goal

 

[El Flaco]

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The narrative of the World Cup so far has been the duel between Cristiano Ronaldo, who scored a hat-trick for Portugal against Spain, and Lionel Messi, whose penalty miss proved costly as Argentina drew with Iceland.

“Messi suffered the pressure after Ronaldo’s three goals. Ronaldo wanted to do something more, because he hasn’t scored many World Cup goals before this,” added Capello.

“Argentina’s midfield was ridiculous, slow, always trying to go through the middle to hand the ball to Messi. I think Messi is a better player than Ronaldo, but the Argentina team isn’t helping him.”

Cristiano Ronaldo warned he could leave Real Madrid without an increased salary, but Capello believes it’s not about money.

“It’s an issue of pride and feeling he is treated on the same level as Messi.”