Maradona or Messi

el estel said:

Okay, every body is pwned there

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No not really.

Razor said:

You just confirmed what I just said. Messi will be remembered among the all-time greats, but as long as he doesn't make it in the WC he will hardly be remembered as the best player ever.

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Let me repeat again.


Nothing makes any sense in isolation.

Messi has never come close to winning the WC, but he has already outshone just about everyone who has (except maybe Maradona himself)

Posing the question of the GOAT, in terms of the WC is quite arbitrary. It is a competition that a player will in all honesty have 2 (maybe 3) realistic chances of ever winning (depending on the timing of his coming of age in relation to the WC calendar) and is highly dependent on the kind of teammates you have and the opposition, let alone contingent factors like refs, injuries, bad luck etc.

Lionel Messi has been sensational week in, week out for more than 3 years running in La Liga and the CL, yet people who want to doubt him, in true post-infancy, like to post impossible demands to the man. Following Argentina's atrocious 2010 WC (largely thanks to Diego himself, plus Argentina's shocking lack of creative midfielders and wing-backs) there is no point in discussing the freakin' WC, for the simple reason that we won't have another one until 2014. What Leo can do for the moment, is to play in La Liga and the CL (admittedly a higher quality competition nowadays, than the WC) which he does in epic fashion. The WC is not a factor at the moment.

At the end of his career no doubts Messi will be among the top 5, but El Diego LED his nation and a small club in Italy to unprecedented success. Without him Argentina wouldn't have won anything and Napoli would be irrelevant in the annals of football history. But they are because of El Diego he made then relevant in the annals of football history.

Plus doing all of that pumped up on coke and other narcotics makes him untouchable for me.

Messi is not a leader yet. Can he lead by his actions? maybe Can he lead by his words and other abilities? No.

Argentina though should be proud they have 3 players amongst the top 6 GOAT in El Diego, Di Stefano and Messi.

hey come on now, messi did drugs too

yeah Messi did drugs too... Be it performance enhancing, be it mood enhancing all are same anyway!!

Actually it was Maradona the one who ruined Argentina chances to win the WC. Maradona was my fav player, I've always admitted that I had started watching football thanks to Maradona. He was beyond the real.
On the other hand in the previous Wcup, as manager of Argentina, he fielded a team with one DM (Mascherano), 2 wingers (Di Maria and Maxi) plus three forwards (Messi, Higuain, Tevez). No, not Messi should be blamed for that catastrophe, it was Maradona who did the impossible to destroy Argentina's team. Batista was the same moron, I mean how on Earth you'd pair Burdisso and Gabi Milito in defence?

It's too early to compare Maradona to Messi. Many arguments can go on both sides. I like more Messi. But it means nothing

Delusions of grandeur.

Looks like there's no convincing the blind, OUTTA HERE!

I actually thought Anton's post was better than Meta's TBH.

As good as Maradona's Napoli and Argentina were, they were not this Barcelona team. Not for the first time Xavi is being underestimated - Xavi is the best at his position of all time.

La Furia said:

I actually thought Anton's post was better than Meta's TBH.

As good as Maradona's Napoli and Argentina were, they were not this Barcelona team. Not for the first time Xavi is being underestimated - Xavi is the best at his position of all time.

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Meta never underestimated Xavi, mind you. I obviously haven't watched those teams, but I think antonn and co are overrating their acievements. And Meta again has provided good example as to how! The Milan dream team under Sacchi have only won one league title!!

el estel said:

Meta never underestimated Xavi, mind you. I obviously haven't watched those teams, but I think antonn and co are overrating their acievements. And Meta again has provided good example as to how! The Milan dream team under Sacchi have only won one league title!!

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I know they focused on the European Cup, but doesn't that also tell you how good Serie A was in the 80s?

I don't know how anyone could say the Sampdoria of Mancini and Vialli was not great.

Serena is a red herring here, since he never had more than 10 league goals besides that one season, let alone 22. In fact Meta mentioning Serena without also mentioning Zenga, Lothar Matthaus, Brehme and Ramon Diaz, or that the 88-89 Inter was coached by Trappattoni is very telling about Meta's intentions. Really, "Serena's Inter"?

Not that Napoli didn't have other very good players during this time - Careca, etc, but look at what happened when Maradona lost the plot after 1990.

Metaphysical said:

Maradona beat Sacchi's Milan to the Title once, which Mancini's Sampdoria (the year after) and Serena's Inter (the year before) managed as well. in fact Sacchi's Milan were so all-conquering they won a grand total of one Scudetto (Capello's Milan won four, methinks you're conflating the two).

so unless Mancini and Serena need to be counted as All-Time Greats, I don't think you can use that argument in El Diego's favour.

Maradona also got handled by Real Madrid and Spartak Moscow, scoring 0 goals across 4 games against them (2 in 2 against Ujpest) in the '88 and '91 European Cups.

the World Cup argument is the last remaining citadel of the Maradona Over Messi Empire. but it's fine citadel, a towering one which Messi will have a hard time knocking down with a supporting cast that is as organised and stable as an epileptic monkey huffing nitrous oxide.

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Considering Serie A was like the NBA of football in the 80's you couldn't be more wrong or way off target

La Furia said:

I know they focused on the European Cup, but doesn't that also tell you how good Serie A was in the 80s?

I don't know how anyone could say the Sampdoria of Mancini and Vialli was not great.

Serena is a red herring here, since he never had more than 10 league goals besides that one season, let alone 22. In fact Meta mentioning Serena without also mentioning Zenga, Lothar Matthaus, Brehme and Ramon Diaz, or that the 88-89 Inter was coached by Trappattoni is very telling about Meta's intentions. Really, "Serena's Inter"?

Not that Napoli didn't have other very good players during this time - Careca, etc, but look at what happened when Maradona lost the plot after 1990.

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Why are some people obsessed by trying to say Maradona played in a poor Napoli side that were relegation candidates?

It just isnt true, Napoli were one of the biggest spenders in Italy in the mid to late 80's. Look at the players they brought in after Maradona signed -

Careca - Arguably the best Brazilian striker of the 80's. Signed for Napoli on the back of scoring 5 at the 1986 World Cup. Was also top scorer in Brazil and named South American player of the year.
Alemao - Signed from Atletico Madrid where he was named the best foreign player in Spain, having previously been voted the best player in South America. Was part of the 1986 Brazil World Cup squad.
Ferrara - one of the best defenders of his generation in Italy, over 40 odd caps for Italy and went on to win many trophies as the main man in the Juventus defence.
Di Napoli - Over 50 caps for Italy and went on to play for AC Milan in the early 90's. Played in 1986 WC. 1988 euros, 1990 WC.
Bagni - Over 40 caps for Italy and was part of the 1986 WC squad.
Crippa - 17 caps for Italy
Francini - Italian intl who was in the Italy squad for 1988 euros.
Carnevale - striker played for Italy at the 1990 WC
Fusi - Italian intl who was in the 1988 euros squad
Zola - Younger years at Napoli where he won his first cap.

The squad that Napoli had was second only to Milan in terms of players. Almost all those named above were brought in after Napoli started spending big and brought in Maradona. Its a tired line to say Maradona joined a relegation threatened Napoli and turned them into champions. It just isnt true. He was the best player in a strong squad.

Had Messi been a madrid player, i'd like to know how many here would still be arguing he's better than Maradona already.

Who knows if Messi will end up better than Maradona, but some of the arguments put forward for Maradona ie 'carrying poor teams to titles' simply isnt true.

zanela said:

Had Messi been a madrid player, i'd like to know how many here would still be arguing he's better than Maradona already.

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