Munir El Haddadi

FCBarca said:

He had other suitors, including Celta Vigo which was apparently done & dusted. We've read already that the Paco deal was contingent on Munir or Samper's involvement, the club opted to 'keep' Samper and sell on Munir

And yes, moving cantera kids to fund moves for other youth products is analogous to being treated as nothing more than a commodity, hence cattle.

The message it continues to send to those enrolling in La Masia is that unless you are Messi, Iniesta or Xavi then you will be developed to the point of selling. Because no, not every youth player will be world class but based on what we see today had Lucho been coaching Pedro & Busquets back in 2008, they'd be cattled off as well. Developing talent isn't farming it out for someone else to do it, this wasn't the Cruyff way either. We'd never benefit from Xavi, Iniesta, Valdes, Messi et al

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No young player at Barca was ever given minutes or developed just because they were from La Masia.

There is no comparison to 'cattle' as it is in the BEST interest of these players to be playing regular football. Ideally at Barca and if not then elsewhere.

Totally disagree about this discouraging young players in La Masia. The last thing those players want is to get to 22/23 and have not played a lot of first team football. That is a bigger deterrent.

FCBarca said:

He had other suitors, including Celta Vigo which was apparently done & dusted. We've read already that the Paco deal was contingent on Munir or Samper's involvement, the club opted to 'keep' Samper and sell on Munir

And yes, moving cantera kids to fund moves for other youth products is analogous to being treated as nothing more than a commodity, hence cattle.

The message it continues to send to those enrolling in La Masia is that unless you are Messi, Iniesta or Xavi then you will be developed to the point of selling. Because no, not every youth player will be world class but based on what we see today had Lucho been coaching Pedro & Busquets back in 2008, they'd be cattled off as well. Developing talent isn't farming it out for someone else to do it, this wasn't the Cruyff way either. We'd never benefit from Xavi, Iniesta, Valdes, Messi et al

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I agree with you in some points but honestly Xavi or Pedro didn't have Messi, Suarez and Neymar in front of them. Munir would not have any chance for development here in next few years. This is the fact. Only thing I regret is that this isn't deal like we have for Halilovic where we can buy him back...

Samper on the other hand is few levels bellow Busquets at his age. This kids couldn't even compete in Segunda Division and they also had problems in segunda division B!

I think that the problem is not with Lucho but more with less talented generation of players. And I am not saying they are not talented at all but they were obviously not prepared to enter the firs team like Xavi, Iniesta or Pedro were.

The only prospect which actually left Barca in last few years and still has a great career is Thiago. The one and only! And that says a lot about current state of La Masia.

Flavia said:

From Pep's tenure, only Busquets and Pedro were 1st team material, and only Busquets was really a talent. Pep gave chances to jeffren, tello, cuenca, and others, but where are they now? Lucho is turning Roberto into a excellent rb, Rafinha and Denis could maybe turn out well too. The thing is la masia isn't producing Messis, Iniestas or Xavis right now. Only way to have many cantera players is to give up fighthing for trophies.

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The point is that they were given chances, this is Barcelona footballing club - not a corporation.

Tello was shipped off, returned and didn't fit into plans of other coaches. Cuenca was injured and made surplus. Jeffren similar as was Nolito who was pursued again. Roberto was first played by Pep - 22 youth players debuted under Guardiola, including Thiago & Rafinha. That's how you unearth and mold talent rather than buying them

La Masia isn't producing great talents because the club has not prioritised them since Barto/Rosell took over - just look at the history of the B team, nevermind the FIFA debacle.

FCBarca said:

He had other suitors, including Celta Vigo which was apparently done & dusted. We've read already that the Paco deal was contingent on Munir or Samper's involvement, the club opted to 'keep' Samper and sell on Munir

And yes, moving cantera kids to fund moves for other youth products is analogous to being treated as nothing more than a commodity, hence cattle.

The message it continues to send to those enrolling in La Masia is that unless you are Messi, Iniesta or Xavi then you will be developed to the point of selling. Because no, not every youth player will be world class but based on what we see today had Lucho been coaching Pedro & Busquets back in 2008, they'd be cattled off as well. Developing talent isn't farming it out for someone else to do it, this wasn't the Cruyff way either. We'd never benefit from Xavi, Iniesta, Valdes, Messi et al

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Firstly you're operating based on many assumptions about theae deals that were done and dusted likely borne from Sport and MD articles which are tantamount to hearsay at best, more likely complete fabrications.

Secondly, again this cattle treatment talk is patently ridiculous. These players are under contract and the team are perfectly in their right to transfer them. Munir's transfer has no irregularities that you can point to substantiate ill treatment.

And finally, this team is in a wholly different situation as those teams of years past. Competition and expectations are far beyond what they were then and the only players who have a shot in this team currently are indeed players of established high level.
It would be far more analogous to poor treatment to keep a player buried because his level isn't adequate than to loan him out and afford him a chance of growth and improvement.

FCBarca said:

The point is that they were given chances, this is Barcelona footballing club - not a corporation.

Tello was shipped off, returned and didn't fit into plans of other coaches. Cuenca was injured and made surplus. Jeffren similar as was Nolito who was pursued again. Roberto was first played by Pep - 22 youth players debuted under Guardiola, including Thiago & Rafinha. That's how you unearth and mold talent rather than buying them

La Masia isn't producing great talents because the club has not prioritised them since Barto/Rosell took over - just look at the history of the B team, nevermind the FIFA debacle.

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Just like Munir has been given chances and a number of other B team players.

Roberto is the perfect symbol of what can be achieved through sticking in and improving.

Munir is a great example to young La Masia players...you will get chances and if not ready the worst case scenario is a move to the number nine shirt at a big La Liga club.

FCBarca said:

The point is that they were given chances, this is Barcelona footballing club - not a corporation.

Tello was shipped off, returned and didn't fit into plans of other coaches. Cuenca was injured and made surplus. Jeffren similar as was Nolito who was pursued again. Roberto was first played by Pep - 22 youth players debuted under Guardiola, including Thiago & Rafinha. That's how you unearth and mold talent rather than buying them

La Masia isn't producing great talents because the club has not prioritised them since Barto/Rosell took over - just look at the history of the B team, nevermind the FIFA debacle.

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Bartomeu has a different approach, but if a talent like Iniesta was there, he would not be shipped off. Thing is most of players from la masia don't make the 1st team. Lucho didn't go for a rb, he's trusting and molding Roberto.
And there's 2 ways to develop cantera players. They can develop somewhere else and return to be part of the 1st team. Pique, Alba, Rafinha, Denis are also examples that this works.

This board hasnt changed the approach at all in regards to La Masia.

There have been highest ever number La Masia graduates in first team squad etc and all La Masia elevens put on park.

Munir, Sandro, Bartra, Sergi Roberto, Montoya, Rafinha all been given chances the past couple seasons.

None of your examples Flavia were cantera kids that stayed - Denis wasn't a cantera product, Alba left as did Pique - all were purchased, not developed. Rafinha was loaned, during the new board - under Lucho. Had he gone elsewhere, no way to know whether he'd return.

Plus, there's no way to know what Barto et al would do with cantera kids with potential otherwise. This also implies that Pedro & Busquets would be shipped off.

Again, this is the approach by many clubs but not Barcelona and, again, was not Cruyff's philosophy - the very same one that has defined this generation. The same one that placed Pep in the first team as a skinny 19 year old because he read the game so well eventhough he lacked other attributes. This is getting lost.

FCBarca said:

He had other suitors, including Celta Vigo which was apparently done & dusted. We've read already that the Paco deal was contingent on Munir or Samper's involvement, the club opted to 'keep' Samper and sell on Munir

And yes, moving cantera kids to fund moves for other youth products is analogous to being treated as nothing more than a commodity, hence cattle.

The message it continues to send to those enrolling in La Masia is that unless you are Messi, Iniesta or Xavi then you will be developed to the point of selling. Because no, not every youth player will be world class but based on what we see today had Lucho been coaching Pedro & Busquets back in 2008, they'd be cattled off as well. Developing talent isn't farming it out for someone else to do it, this wasn't the Cruyff way either. We'd never benefit from Xavi, Iniesta, Valdes, Messi et al

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get with the times man, things have changed. when xavi, valdes , iniesta and messi were upcoming we didnt have players like them in the squad, messi didnt have an MSN to compete against hence he was able to develop. pep sold ronnie in order to further develop messi, but there isnt that option right now. lots of things have changed and it is much much harder to develop players from la masia than it was before. no to mention these players who were promoted are some of the best players ever, and when they were upcoming had skills to match the XI back then, these players being promoted these days are nowhere near that quality and we are having to go out of our way in order to play them, in hope that they may be half as decent as our last crop of la masia talents and most of them have proved they arent. the days of players being one-man clubs are fading, as shown with bartra, if a player wants stay at the club and sit of the bench instead of move in order to further develop thier careers then they will stagnate and end up not getting anywhere. as for the 'message it sends' it sends the message that only the very best will be able to make it at fcb, if we promoted every decent young player and played them just because they were from our youth team, we would be arsenal.

FCBarca said:

None of your examples Flavia were cantera kids that stayed - Denis wasn't a cantera product, Alba left as did Pique - all were purchased, not developed. Rafinha was loaned, during the new board - under Lucho. Had he gone elsewhere, no way to know whether he'd return.

Plus, there's no way to know what Barto et al would do with cantera kids with potential otherwise. This also implies that Pedro & Busquets would be shipped off.

Again, this is the approach by many clubs but not Barcelona and, again, was not Cruyff's philosophy - the very same one that has defined this generation. The same one that placed Pep in the first team as a skinny 19 year old because he read the game so well eventhough he lacked other attributes. This is getting lost.

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They were purchased back because they developed. And they left to do that, as that wouldn't had happened if they stayed. Players need minutes. Cruyff's philosophy worked back then. Times have changed. If Barça stick to cantera players like you want, we'd become Athletic sooner than later. Can't keep being successful as we are now, and still do that at the same time. Roberto stayed and fought his way thru. Bojan and JDS stayed, but they weren't good enough and left. It's just how it is. Can't be romantic about that and still want to remain successful.

The likes of Xavi and Iniesta were not always given preference or seen as symbols under Cruyff or previous board.

Iniesta was second to bigger more powerful players quite often and Xavi thought about leaving. It took Pep to come in and totally change that.

Puyol was very nearly sent out on loan as well bar injury in younger days.

Youngsters in La Masia will see loans as a good thing and make them more likely to stay. Ideally they want to play for Barca if no to play first team football.

That's the point, pep gave players like jeffern a real chance to prove themselves.

Denis wasn't given s chance he was farmed out to another club to be developed, only after he is almost the finish product does Luis have any interest in him.

One Aldi gets the feeling that if Rafa was here and not playing with him at celta, he would get the same treatment.

He just can't manage the responsibility of winning and developing young players it's one or the other with him.

One gets the feeling he just lucked into Roberto at right back.

The whole point is managers like pep,gave players we all knew wasn't good enough for Barcelona a fair chance to prove themselves, in real competitive games, not just preseason.

Pep player Roberto in the clasico, Luis would die before he does something like that, Luis would rather run the players into the ground, than give a young player chance, in a game where we are 10-0 up after 30 minutes.

It's a shame what he and this new board is doing to la masia, a real shame.

FCBarca said:

The point is that they were given chances, this is Barcelona footballing club - not a corporation.

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The whole point of sending players away on loan or with a buyback option is to give them a chance to impress. That's why almost every deal the club has made includes some kind of clause that keeps the player linked to the club.

Neither Deulofeu nor Adama, Tello and Halilovic have proven to be worthy of being part of the best team in the world. Since you're one of the few out there who's still favoring Deulofeu, I'm sure you can tell us what exactly holds him back from showing the potential that you think he has. Some decent pre-season games don't change the fact that he has not shown to be ready to play at a club like Barca.

Denis, however, seized his chance, worked hard and improved massively and now has reaped the reward by being a part of the best team in the world.

What about the innate quality of the player. Sticking to cantera at all times and making it a tactic will mean you have great results only when the players Cantera produces are the quality of Messi (not possible maybe but you get the idea), Iniesta, Xavi, Busquets etc. It's not only illogical, but also detrimental to the team to think that if you give Samper a lot of time he will magically form Busi's qualities and become the blonde Busquets.

It's quite clear that if you are a La Masia player and you have quality, you will be part of Barcelona. But to say that a lot of players must be forced in the team at once so they can grow, I'm sorry but that's not right. The standard will come down to the point of players not evolving at all because there is no Messi, no Suarez, no Neymar and Rakitic to learn from. Nothing to inspire them in the team. Take a look at Laporte. Been 3-4 years since people talk about him being perfect for Barcelona, yet he didn't evolve one bit. Why? Because he is not part of a team that fights to be the best, a team where he feels like he has to work hard to be at the same standard as his teammates. He is the best at Bilbao and he'll continue to be the best there comfortably, without being a great CB.

Take a look at Roberto now. He's growing as a RB because we have a team that can allow him to grow, game by game. He knows that if he screws up, maybe Rakitic is there to close that player down, or make a tactical foul or smth. You play better when you know the team is good enough to help you when you make a bad call. In a team that functions well, filled with class players, a young addition will learn faster an better. The simple fact that the team works and the plays are flowing nicely will make his transition faster. Pedro is also an example, in 2010-2012. The team was working well, and when Messi moved false 9 and he took right wing he clicked right away. Why? Because the game was working, team was looking great and just implemented Pedro with ease, he went with the flow. His performances were good from the start and the transition was seamless. Now take Messi and Villa out from that attack and put Pedro in his first season next to some fellow La Masia players (worse than him obviously). I'm 100% convinced that his growth is minimal, maybe even non existent.

Cantera players have to play with working models in front of them. To see what great players are like and to want to become like them. You have to have a world class team. Then when 1-2 players like Denis and Roberto get in, they learn and evolve faster, because the team is helping them.

Flavia said:

They were purchased back because they developed. And they left to do that, as that wouldn't had happened if they stayed. Players need minutes. Cruyff's philosophy worked back then. Times have changed. If Barça stick to cantera players like you want, we'd become Athletic sooner than later. Can't keep being successful as we are now, and still do that at the same time. Roberto stayed and fought his way thru. Bojan and JDS stayed, but they weren't good enough and left. It's just how it is. Can't be romantic about that and still want to remain successful.

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Pique barely played & Alba was gone for years and moved into a new position - one was poached, the other was deemded surplus. Cannot say that about Pique.

Back then it worked? It was only a few years ago, you talk as if it's outdated - it is less applicable because the cantera as a whole has been handled terribly by the current board. Roberto stayed but thought of leaving and had he not been so prized, a Captain at most youth levels etc. would he have stayed? We won't know. Roberto is an exceptional case, not many will follow like him.

Give the kids a chance, if they play and can't integrate, you move them on - not playing them, not acceptable. JDS? Come on, he was a step above Douglas in terms of quality, merely a social club member. Bojan was given ample opportunity and failed, simple as.

I prefer Bilbao's approach to that of RM.