Arsenal
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Jair Ventura
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What value, what statistical ratings, what reviews? Point towards them. Should be simple enough.
P.S.What's hilariously ironic is your second best player was bought from a mid table Ligue 1 side.
Whether or not your football is beautiful is subjective. It's results are objectively mediocre.
So?
And consistently make early exits.
What does any of this has to do with the quality of your players?
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messi2140
6racies Xavi
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linetty
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They like to play Arsenal for a different reason
DrPepper
New member
Don't agree with them playing beautiful football either (anymore). They've become more pragmatic this season, trying to park the bus against Chelsea, Liverpool, Man City and Spurs really.
But I learned that when your favorite team takes a defensive approach it's beautiful counter attacking football and when the opposition does it it's parking the bus.
But I learned that when your favorite team takes a defensive approach it's beautiful counter attacking football and when the opposition does it it's parking the bus.
KingMessi
SiempreBlaugrana
Semi-Neutral
Sir Alupp Heynrguson
So they've done well for their youth teams and are earning an international cap or two. Wow. For every "wonderkid" who succeeds out there, there are three more who flop or never reach their potential. Ozil, Cazorla, Alexis, Ospina, Mertesacker, Koscielny, Ramsey, Szczesny, Welbeck, Wilshere, Walcott, Giroud, Gibbs, Debuchy, Rosicky and Ox are all regular international players, and have performed at the highest stage, not just in the U20 World Cup. There's also players that face insanely stiff competition, like Monreal and Arteta, and players who are just breaking out this season, like Coquelin and Chambers. And there's also players who are beasts at international level but aren't good enough for us, like Podolski and Campbell. And yet because these guys have high potential they're better than our proven starting XI?
Well's that what we're arguing about, I don't think it was deserved at all.
Don't see what's so funny about it. No one's saying that Monaco has no good players, but at the same time I can't fathom how anyone could argue that Monaco is better than Arsenal.
Still have no idea how one quarterfinal is a better record than five round of sixteens... Would you rather have a player who scores a hattrick every five games or a player who scores a goal a game?
Jair Ventura
New member
They will be occupying core positions for their respective national teams. They were groomed for it.
Awesome, looks as if you have as many international regulars as Monaco. Thank you for emphasizing my point. But, looking at your list a few things stand out:
- Wilshire, Ox, Walcott, Gibbs, Welbeck, and Ramsey are all mediocre players of mediocre international squad(s). Not a single one of them would be called up for France/Brazil, the primary countries of origin of Monaco's players, nor were/are any of them held in the same esteem as Kurzawa, Kondogbia, Martial, Fabinho, or Benardo Silva in terms of international potential.
- Koscielny, Giroud, and Debuchy are all from mid table Ligue 1 sides. Giroud, for example, came up in Ligue 2 and didn't make any international caps for any age group until he was 24. At 28, he's already losing preference to Griezman, Lacazette, and Fekir; players of the very same age group of those I've been referring. I'm confident that's the same case with Koscielny and Debuchy as well, who are being replaced by Varane, Zouma, Mangala, Amavi, Kurzawa, etc. Again, same age group.
I didn't say Monaco had a better starting 11, I've argued that Monaco and Arsenal are the same level, something you've yet to be able to objectively dispute. But yes, had Monaco not unexpectedly sold James and Falcao, they'd have a stronger starting XI than Arsenal. As it stands, the latter's is stronger, but not enough so that it separates the two clubs distinctively in overall class.
It was deserved. You lost 3-1 at home to a bunch of kids.
That isn't the argument, the argument is that the two clubs are the same level. I've yet to see anything to dispute that.
It's more impressive because Monaco just recently started receiving the necessary investments to compete continentally. 4 years ago they weren't even a top flight club, and now they're knocking out the EPL's best with no named academy kids, reaching stages of European competition that Arsenal with all it's notoriety, and all it's wealth, cannot.
Jenks
Senior Member
You're delusional if you think that Wilshere and Ramsey would not have been at least called up by France. It wasn't that long ago that they were using wasters like Malouda in the middle. And Monaco is not 'knocking out the EPL's best', they did it once, after the most shambolic defensive display from Arsenal in years... then got dominated at home. Bradford's win over Chelsea was more comprehensive than your win over Arsenal. I don't doubt the trajectory Monaco is on, but no manager in Europe would rather face Arsenal than them in the knock-out stage of a European competition.
I'm sure they'd have been called up but they are still mediocre players, Ramsey is the best of that lot and is what I consider above average but nowhere near top class.
I'm sure plenty would rather play arsenal, though both sides are easy. You know you are pretty much guaranteed to knock arsenal out if you are even half decent. Monaco could get lucky however.
I'm sure plenty would rather play arsenal, though both sides are easy. You know you are pretty much guaranteed to knock arsenal out if you are even half decent. Monaco could get lucky however.
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Sir Alupp Heynrguson
OK, I don't think there's anything I can say to convince you, and there's definitely nothing you can say to convince me that Monaco is better than Arsenal, so I'll stop talking about this. Might revisit this sometime in the future.
Jair Ventura
New member
Called up over Pogba, Matuidi, Gonalons, Payet, Fekir, Kondogbia? Isn't happening.
*yawn* Always with the excuses.
The particulars of European football seems lost on English fans. 1 of your 2 goals in the 2nd leg was created from a direct error from Kurzawa. Without it, you'd have walked away from the principality with a 1-0 win, exactly what Monaco was playing for.
No, it wasn't.
Why not? Arsenal is an easy out.
Jenks
Senior Member
Is that what I said? I don't believe I did. Some of those are debatable, but I don't have the patience or inclination, either way you have definitely called up worse players than Wilshere and Ramsey on a fairly regular basis. You have Sissoko in your current squad for example.
It's not an excuse, it's a reason. You will struggle to find anyone here who doesn't think that that was a horrendous defensive display even by Arsenal standards, check the Champions League thread and this one at the time if you like. Also, Arsenal are not "the EPL's best" by any stretch of the imagination.
You? I'm not an Arsenal fan, I just value sanity. You can just as easily credit Monaco's goals with mistakes as you can Arsenal's.
You're either blinded by bias or you didn't see the game. Bradford put four past Chelsea at Stamford Bridge, and some quality goals too. They also didn't lose at home either.
Because Arsenal are a better team than Monaco with better players, and everyone knows it. Not by a huge amount, but still.
Jair Ventura
New member
Sissoko is as average as Wilshere and Ramsey, yes. May explain why he wasn't called for the friendlies against Brazil and Denmark even despite Pogba's injury.
It's an excuse.
They're a top 3 EPL side. Not very much separating Arsenal and City.
I didn't credit Arsenals goal as anything, rather, it's how the goal was classified in the scorebook.
http://www.whoscored.com/Matches/904253/Live
And Monaco put 3 past Arsenal at the Emirates, while allowing only 1. A 2 point differential both ways, except the UCL is a much grander stage than the FA cup.
What are you talking about? The FA cup has no return leg.
They may be a slightly better team, but the clubs are of the same tier. My point.
Jenks
Senior Member
He was in your last squad, and both Wilshere and Ramsey are comfortably better players, ergo they would both be able to get into a France squad. Although I've forgotten why this is even a point of contention given that Arsenal have Ozil, Rosicky, Cazorla etc.
Compelling counter-argument
City aren't the best the EPL has to offer either, Chelsea are, and there's plenty between Chelsea and Arsenal. And again, a sample size of... one, is not worth drawing conclusions from. If this tie is evidence of Monaco being on Arsenal's level than Bradford City are ready for the Premier League.
The stage is irrelevant, certainly less relevant than the calibre of opposition anyway.
It does if you draw the first game.
Your point seems to change fairly regularly.
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