Malcom

Cule4life said:

We have people saying that with Messi walking in CL it's like playing with 10 men and here we have BBZ saying playing with Messi is like having two players? Which one is it folks?

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Well, (2 + 0) : 2 = 1

So, having Messi is still like having 1 player.

Tekkers said:

he's a lot more one dimensional than dembele which is interesting

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I would accept one dimensional "like a clean paper" player if he starts banging goals and assists...

I thought he was good early on when he was involved, until suddenly it became Messi & Suarez show and he was ignored.

BBZ8800 said:

So, wait, let's take a look at it slowly:
1. we have the best player in our history, Messi, who occupies a place somewhere around the center and on the right. So, no one can play there because they will be in Messi's way
2. we have one of the best Cfs in the world, Suarez, who can play successfully only in the middle as a "9"
3. and the only free spot is a LW for Coutinho, Dembele and Malcom

And now, you have a new kid Malcom, about whom nobody knows how good is he, and you would like to see him on the right side, with our 2 world class attackers, Messi and Suarez playing outside of their best position.
So, let's ruin 2 proven players (their positions) so that a questionable kid could play.

Sounds like a plan. Barcaforum's plan, though.

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This was my initial thoughts, and probably why the coach played him on the left, along the fact that he will be better positioned for some Messi through balls.
But looking it more in depth, I just don't think it is the right decision

Right now we are playing with 433 that is asymmetrical, with our frontline consist of true number 9 (Suarez) Second Striker (Messi) and a winger.
The winger in our team is Coutinho who is far better on left side than right side, just like it was with Neymar in 16/17 season, so it is normal we have LW but no RW.
But when Coutinho is there, what is the reason to play our winger on left side?
Obvious answer is Messi? but while Messi is on paper occupying right side, it isn't the case in reality, he doesn't support that side at all. he is just slightly moving 2-3 meters to the right of midline doesn't make him occupying right side.
EV last year best move was that he accepted that Messi is SS and stopped pretending he is RW, this allowed us to play RW (Paulinho/Dembele) while Iniesta slightly supporting Alba, and leaving the whole left side for the later. Truth is Alba right now is easily top 5 fullback in the world and probably the quickest between them. He is perfect candidate to leave him on his own on the flank.
This isn't the case with our right side, Semedo and Roberto has their strengths and weaknesses, but we are clearly better when they have someone in front of them, can same be said on Alba who is dominant anyway?

I think it is pretty simple for us, if Coutinho is staring let him play on left side, if he isn't put the winger (Dembele/Malcom) on the right.
This brings more balance to the team and better defense while allowing both flanks to be sound attacking wise

Messi is great, but he isn't as great as he once was, and he is already makes the team make ton of adjustments tactically and about ball movements, but at some point you just need to stop making sacrifice for him and let it be Barca team not Messi team

khaled_a_d said:

I thought he was good early on when he was involved, until suddenly it became Messi & Suarez show and he was ignored.



This was my initial thoughts, and probably why the coach played him on the left, along the fact that he will be better positioned for some Messi through balls.
But looking it more in depth, I just don't think it is the right decision

Right now we are playing with 433 that is asymmetrical, with our frontline consist of true number 9 (Suarez) Second Striker (Messi) and a winger.
The winger in our team is Coutinho who is far better on left side than right side, just like it was with Neymar in 16/17 season, so it is normal we have LW but no RW.
But when Coutinho is there, what is the reason to play our winger on left side?
Obvious answer is Messi? but while Messi is on paper occupying right side, it isn't the case in reality, he doesn't support that side at all. he is just slightly moving 2-3 meters to the right of midline doesn't make him occupying right side.
EV last year best move was that he accepted that Messi is SS and stopped pretending he is RW, this allowed us to play RW (Paulinho/Dembele) while Iniesta slightly supporting Alba, and leaving the whole left side for the later. Truth is Alba right now is easily top 5 fullback in the world and probably the quickest between them. He is perfect candidate to leave him on his own on the flank.
This isn't the case with our right side, Semedo and Roberto has their strengths and weaknesses, but we are clearly better when they have someone in front of them, can same be said on Alba who is dominant anyway?

I think it is pretty simple for us, if Coutinho is staring let him play on left side, if he isn't put the winger (Dembele/Malcom) on the right.
This brings more balance to the team and better defense while allowing both flanks to be sound attacking wise

Messi is great, but he isn't as great as he once was, and he is already makes the team make ton of adjustments tactically and about ball movements, but at some point you just need to stop making sacrifice for him and let it be Barca team not Messi team

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+1.

BBZ8800 said:

Since you are a funny guy, do you wanna bet what will happen with Malcom in a few Months?
And his future career regarding top level teams, after we will sell him?

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Thanks. It's true that I'm a funny guy. I don't really see how that's supposed to have anything to do with knowing "what will happen with Malcom in a few months" though, but since logic seems to be your strong suit I'll assume it's just that I'm the one to blame for not being able to grasp it.

On a more serious note: I don't really see where you're going with that. Even I said that I don't know if Malcom will make it here. First of all because even the most talented footballers sometimes get a sub-par career for many different reasons (not suiting the team's playstyle, poor relationship with the coach, injury, bad career move...). Second of all, because even if he has the tools to be a very good winger, among the 5-10 best in the world, I highly doubt he'll ever be a serious regular contender for Ballon d'Or for example. Don't get me wrong, that doesn't mean he's bad. But players like Pedro never got close to winning it, others like Ribery or Robben got "rather" close once or twice but that's it. They were still considered among the best wingers in the world. Heck, a guy like Giuly played for 3 seasons in Barcelona, winning 3 majors titles including a UCL. Don't get me wrong, I love Giuly, he was one of my favorite players back then, but I don't think he's in a completely different league when compared to Malcom.

I've already said that in my first post on this forum about him: he'll probably never be the star of the team here - which is a good thing imho -, but he can be a very strong option as a regular starter. Sure, Hazard, Salah, and a few others would be better picks in an ideal world. But it's not like you can really just buy them now (well, you could, arguably, but that would mean using all of your transfer money, thus not buying a replacement for Suarez). And I'm sure you can win titles thanks to him.

Didnt bbz say thw same about arthur after 82 minutes

Danic said:

Didnt bbz say thw same about arthur after 82 minutes

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There's a reason he doesn't go in the Arthur thread anymore

Danic said:

Didnt bbz say thw same about arthur after 82 minutes

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Cherry picking, but yes.

I did make a premature estimation on a lot of our players after only 2-3 matches, like:
Neymar: a clown
Halilovic: low IQ
Adama: low IQ
Deulofeu: low IQ and one trick pony
Tello: low IQ and one trick pony
Alexis: low IQ
Samper: not good enough, scared
Bartra: not good enough, scared
Denis: not good enough, horrible physical skills
Digne: not good enough
Paco: not good enough
Semedo: not good enough
Dembele: low IQ, a bad fit for our team

I was wrong on:
Mats, during his Frosty days
Arthur, but we will see how will that develop
And my bad was that I had faith in Gomes for longer than the average fan.

More or less, my "hate train" was correct in 13 out of 15 cases, even after 100-200 minutes played.

Also, it is not about hating a player for no reason.
I have said a lot of times, I don't have emotional connection with ANY of our players.
I love only our club and a team in general and I don't care about single players.
If you are good=you should stay
If you are not good enough=good luck at Roma, Everton and Sevilla.

I am looking at players in a more mathematical way, without emotions.
And imo, over 20-30 years of watching random young players in real life in my town, in my country, at Barca and at all other big clubs, my simple rule is:
1. if you want to make it at Barca, you need world class technical talent as a factor No1.
If you are just an average footballer technically (Roberto, Gabri, Samper), you will usually either fail or end as a squad player if you are a good guy, and good in other areas.
But you will never be a key player at Barca.
So, having a world class TECHNICAL talent is a requirement NO1.
2. then, in all other areas, you need to have either AVERAGE or ABOVE average skills.
If you are below average in any area, you will 90% fail (if you look at a sample over 20-30 years).
So, skills in which you need at least average level are:
1) IQ
2) decent physique, pace for example, or strength (in a case of Denis)
3) good professionalism (Deulofeu, Dembele, Neymar)
4) a player needs to be at least average in terms of bravery, and not be a scared girl like Bartra, Samper and Semedo
5) you need to have a position which actually EXISTS in Barca's formation, otherwise you might be in big problems (Denis, and even Alena to some extent)

Now, one more time, in short:
1. you need a WORLD CLASS talent.
If you don't have it, you are dead for Barca right away.
If you do have it, then you need:
2. at least average IQ
3. at least average professionalism
4. at least average/playable physique
5. at least average bravery and not being scared to play under pressure
6. your position needs to exist in Barca's tactics

Now, if you'll apply only these basic rules, you will see easily how 90% of players are quite dumb, or with low technical skills and not good for us.
For example:
Adama=too dumb, the end of a story. He can never play for Barca
Halil=too dumb. The same. Nothing can solve that problem.
Deulofeu=dumb and not good enough in terms of skills for Barca (requirement NO1)
Samper=questionable quality and scared.

On the other hand, look at players who were successful lately at Barca:
Xavi:
1. world class technical skills
2. Einstein's football IQ
3. awesome professional
4. not scared. Not a thug either, but he is not a pussy either
5. playable physique
6. his position exists at Barca

Iniesta:
1. world class technical skills
2. awesome football IQ
3. awesome professional
4. not scared. Not a thug either, but he is not a pussy either
5. playable physique
6. his position exists at Barca

Puyol:
1. good enough in terms of talent and skills
2. good IQ
3. awesome professional, a leader
4. not scared. A warrior, a lion
5. awesome physical skills
6. his position exists at Barca

I could go on and on, but you see, with majority of guys you will see that:
1. they have a world class talent
2. and NOT a single major flaw in other 5 areas which I have mentioned

Or, you will find guys like Ronaldinho, Neymar and similar, who weren't good professionals:
= but Ronaldinho ruined his career due to that
= and Neymar dropped from a Top3 players in the world to a 15th place from the same unprofessional-behavior reasons

Let's go back ontopic, why do I think that Dembele and Malcom won't ever be starters and key players here?
Dembele:
1. world class talent
2. IQ=fail
3. professionalism=fail
4. physique=playable
5. somewhat scared and not ready for pressure of the highest level
6. position=exists here

So, Dembele's problem is not only a bad professionalism.
He already has 3 major flaws (and with having only 1 of them, you usually won't make it at Barca): low IQ, bad professional, not mentally strong/brave enough for Barca.
If we add how his playing style is not a good fit for Barca's style, imo, it is quite easy to say that 90% likely there is no way that he will make it here.

Malcom:
My problem with him is a point no1: he doesn't seem to have world class talent.
He has a talent, but more like Sevilla and Lyon level of talent, not Barca's level of talent.
This is why I have even less faith in Malcom compared to Dembele.
Further:
He has a good IQ.
He is a good professional.
He is not scared.
But we have 2 more problems:
1) his physique seems to be bad. Imo, he is way too slow for a winger. And you can't improve your pace. He will be slower and slower in late 20s.
2. further, his position is a RW, and that position is not available at Barca currenly.

So, you see:
Dembele has 3 out of 6 deadly flaws.
And Malcom also has 3 out of 6 deadly flaws, and what is even worse, he doesn't posses a world class technical talent, which is a requirement No1 for Barca.

So, let's see whether these guys will improve over 2 weeks, 2 Months or 2 years.
In my book, if you are slow=you are slow.
I don't need to watch 200 matches to say: ok, he is too slow for Barca.
If you are dumb=you are dumb.
I don't need to watch 200 matches to estimate that Dembele is not the brightest guy out there.

Some users used to told me: you want our players to fail, only so that you can say: I told you so.
Well, I don't shit on all players.
I am shitting only on those guys for whom I think that are 90% destined to fail here and it is wiser to move on and buy guys with less deadly flaws.

From recent signings, I didn't shit on Umtiti, Coutinho, Cillessen, Lenglet.
I was scared, though, about Umtiti's inexperience, but he doesn't posses DEADLY flaws in other areas:
1. he has a world class talent
2. he has a decent IQ
3. he is an average professional, mostly (except that thing with a contract extension)
4. he has a world class physique
5. he is brave and a fighter
6. his position exists at Barca

Lenglet:
1. good talent
2. good IQ
3. good professional
4. good physique
5. not scared
6. his position exists

So, one more time, it may seem that I am hating on Dembele, Malcom and some guys for no reason.
But they just have too many of these DEADLY flaws and anyone who is less emotional about players can spot those flaws after 2-3 matches.

So, sorry guys for crashing your dreams, but history, stats and maths say that players with Dembele's and Malcom's skills are 90% destined to fail at Barca.
Now let's sit down, wait and see how will these 2 stories develop.
And whether maths, history and some basic rules were correct in an estimation.

Actual low IQ is throwing around 'statistics' to support 'conclusions' without any indication of formal training in the discipline.

KingLeo10 said:

Actual low IQ is throwing around 'statistics' to support 'conclusions' without any indication of formal training in the discipline.

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Ok, I am dumb.
I don't have a degree in psychology.

Now, use the theory from this low IQ user from above or use your: he is young and has potential, we need to be patient, let's give him 2 years approach:
= and you'll see which one will be more precise and where you will lose less time on players who shouldn't play here (or who have too low chances to make it here, so it is wiser to just move on to better prospects).

BBZ8800 said:

Ok, I am dumb.
I don't have a degree in psychology.

Now, use the theory from this low IQ user from above or use your: he is young and has potential, we need to be patient, let's give him 2 years approach:
= and you'll see which one will be more precise and where you will lose less time on players who shouldn't play here (or who have too low chances to make it here, so it is wiser to just move on to better prospects).

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It's not psychology, there's actual doctoral degrees in statistics. Perhaps my comment was too harsh, but I come from a medical research background and there's an insane amount of rigor/review applied to statistical methodologies before you can convince others you have actually found something meaningful.

so my problem isn't with you making predictions or saying a player has low IQ. It's the absolutely arbitrary numbers you tend to pull out to support those claims.

not to mention you play favorites. I don't see any such 'analysis' in EV's thread when the general opinion, even from his supporters here like khaled, was that he dropped the ball big time in the betis game.

KingLeo10 said:

It's not psychology, there's actual doctoral degrees in statistics. Perhaps my comment was too harsh, but I come from a medical research background and there's an insane amount of rigor/review applied to statistical methodologies before you can convince others you have actually found something meaningful.

so my problem isn't with you making predictions or saying a player has low IQ. It's the absolutely arbitrary numbers you tend to pull out to support those claims.

not to mention you play favorites. I don't see any such 'analysis' in EV's thread when the general opinion, even from his supporters here like khaled, was that he dropped the ball big time in the betis game.

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he is used to insulting our professional players (Malcom, Arthur, Dembélé, Semedo ...).

BBZ8800 said:

snip.

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Why don't we talk instead about the players that you support should (have) play(ed)?

Rafinha?
Sergi Roberto?
Gomes?
Paulinho?
Turan?

What about Valverde?

It's easy to say most young players won't make it. But it's stupid to say these things after a couple of matches. Because the downside is far worse than the alternative. Because there are no sure things in football (your favorite team in the world cup didn't make it out of the group stage, and Coutinho a "sure" bet is now stagnating under this environment). And if you apply that method, you will be missing out on a lot of opportunities. Which is something we cannot afford to do in this market.

By the way, regarding Neymar, you said that you would call him a Barça legend if we won the CL with him. Well we did.
Regarding Digne, he was good enough for what he was brought for.
Paco, was good enough for the role he was brought for.
Semedo is at least an improvement over what we have at RB.

BBZ8800 said:

...you need a WORLD CLASS talent...

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Not a bad post and I do agree with quite a few points.

But I just can't grasp your own "WORLD CLASS talent" idea - which I enthusiastically share otherwise.
Why do you, did you constantly and continuously try to defend some players who OBVIOUSLY DID NOT have a talent like that???

Why did you favor, prefer the Pedos and the like who have no world-class-talent - IF according to your own statement it is THE number ONE REQUIREMENT in Barca???

I hope he meant Pedro and not Pedos^