Adrien Rabiot

It isn't just about speed, workhorses means a lot (not strong players)
That is why players like Kante is really important, they add more intensity to your team,a speedy player who walks most of the games except few sprints like Messi or Salah (in many times) are helpful when they are top players, but you can't have many of those. Coutinho is a bit like that too which is my main reservation on him.
It is unfortunate that "distance covered" is still not available stat. but I would honestly prefer someone like Lucas Torreira over Rabiot.

DonAK said:

It's not about workhorse or tall or smaller players. It's about energy, pace and mobility.

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Still, you can't have 3 Modrics or Iniestas together.
You still need 1 true workhorse like Casemiro

Energy, pace and mobility plus one, good old work=

** I am not saying that Rabiot should be that guy, though.
Arthur-Thiago-Busi isn't the answer either.

DonAK said:

We can only have one such player in our midfield and that is Busquets.

Which is why someone like Pjanic, Rabiot and arguably even Thiago might not be a good option for us.

Arthur seem to be quite a mobile player with great acceleration similar to Modric, but we'll have to see how he does for us in European Football.

We do need another mobile, faster midfielder to complement Coutinho and Busquets as a starter right now though. This is why Rakitic also struggles in a 3 man midfield. Great stamina, but on the slower side and not mobile enough.

I think this is even more critical for us considering we have Messi and Suarez in attack with both not being very mobile players.

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If we can have only one turtle, why "waste" that spot on Busquets?
He is 30 and past his prime.

We can still buy a younger turtle who can play as a Cdm or Cm in 2-3 years after him, if you get my point.
(For example, Rabiot-Arthur-Coutinho, or insert random young stronger Cdm)

But knowing our board, Suarez, Pique and Busi will play until the age 36 as starters.

Where exactly did you get this belief that Thiago or Arthur lack energy and defensive hustle? Arthur has question marks because he still has to adapt to Europe but in the context of his play for Gremio that was one of the more notable parts of his game.

And Modric is extremely mobile and has defensive energy/workrate too. He's better defensively than Kroos who you said was a "workhorse".

But you've bought in so heavily to this notion of "workhorses + schoolboys" that it's almost a hopeless cause convincing you otherwise that players can have value in both ways.

Barcilliant said:

Gold. Pure gold from Kovac. It is not 2009 anymore. If we are to play Barca DNA football it has to be with bigger, stronger, faster players who are more direct. Speed is crucial and needs to be backed up with technical ability.

The reason Rm won so many cl in the last few years is the midfield plus a balanced approach to attack. They can score goals from all sorts of situations. They are multi dimensional in attack while we are one dimensional.

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Yeah, RM has all of that.
On this forum, we hear often how RM is winning CLs because of their midfield. But it sounds as: because of their technique.
No. Barca has technique ONLY in midfield.
Real has technique, pace, stamina, more strength, more workrate.
Plus, their possession is closer to a direct style.
Plus, they can score with feet and head in attack.

All in all, it is not 2009' anymore.
Even prime Xavi and Iniesta would be less efficient in 2018.
I am not saying that they wouldn't be awesome, but they would be less awesome that in 2018'.

I am usually asking for technique+muscles.
But if we'll move even only to technique+faster, more mobile midfielders, that will also be a step in the right direction.
A few inches more, a few muscles more, won't hurt either, though.

A hint: maybe we can understand from these words of Kovac why are they not too interested in Thiago.
He is also closer to 2009's football than to 2018's RM's midfield with a lot of pace, running and mobility (paired with awesome technique).

So, we have Busi, who is a prototype of a footballer from 2009 with zero mobility.
We have just bought Arthur, who is quite slow.
Imagine a trio of Busi-Arthur-Thiago in 2018.

Slow, slow, slow.
And I'll add: tall and weak, short and short.

All in all, we will have to start to look at some other skills besides passing and technique.

Xavi/Iniesta/Sergio/Alves/Messi with Pep would still dominate Europe today, we don't have to act as if clubs now suddenly can counter or defend compared to 2011 when we were the best team in the world.

This whole "possession football is dead" discussion is the dumbest thing ever because only a few clubs play it and people just assume possession based football means you have to play slow and static when in reality the opposite is the case. Its not the styles fault that our team lacks speed, stamina and strength. Pressing high up is very important for that for example and what do we do? We have Messi and Suarez standing there and turtles in midfield. We also have back to back to back coaches that don't really seem to want possession, they more look like they are forced into it because they are working at barca. Compare Spain with Lopetegui and then Hierro at the WC, complete different team.

Also nobody ever said our style can't be played with a tall striker.

Also regarding Kovac...yeah talking is easy. Still think he will not make it at Bayern. Valverde can also say stuff that sounds good and the next week he fields Cou as a RW in a 4-4-2 or subs on Gomes in an important CL game.

This may not be a popular opinion, but I do not think we need a new CM. Coutinho Busquets Arthur should be enough. I believe that we should spend what we have got on a quality LW.

MTL_Barca said:

Also regarding Kovac...yeah talking is easy. Still think he will not make it at Bayern. Valverde can also say stuff that sounds good and the next week he fields Cou as a RW in a 4-4-2 or subs on Gomes in an important CL game.

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Doesn't really matter. He's putting sound arguments in front of us.

Another reason I replied to this: Coutinho had to play on the right due to Iniesta and our inability to play 4-3-3 with Messi and Suarez.

Gomes on the other hand, Valverde be damned.

DonAK said:

Which is why someone like Pjanic, Rabiot and arguably even Thiago might not be a good option for us.

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for the post.

Only wanted to come back to this. I went through the thread yesterday and when I asked you who'd you like you said: Eriksen, Thiago or even Pjanić.

Who would you get now? Still Eriksen I suppose. Someone else, Kante?

Joan Laporta said:

for the post.

Only wanted to come back to this. I went through the thread yesterday and when I asked you who'd you like you said: Eriksen, Thiago or even Pjanić.

Who would you get now? Still Eriksen I suppose. Someone else, Kante?

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Eriksen would still be my best bet since he would provide the energy, workrate and dynamism I believe this midfield need, however I am warming up of the thought of Kante too, however that would need a big cultural and tactical shift from the team which they have to commit to for years, and I don't believe they can or will. Especially with Valverde likely not staying past this or the 2018/19 season as with most managers these days.

Milinkovic-Savic is a decent prospect despite his underwhelming WC, but only for 60ish mill and even then we might need a more established player anyway.

Barcilliant said:

Gold. Pure gold from Kovac. It is not 2009 anymore. If we are to play Barca DNA football it has to be with bigger, stronger, faster players who are more direct. Speed is crucial and needs to be backed up with technical ability.

The reason Rm won so many cl in the last few years is the midfield plus a balanced approach to attack. They can score goals from all sorts of situations. They are multi dimensional in attack while we are one dimensional.

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Kovac is an idiot! Tiki-taka means fast circulation, passes and creating chances. So saying tiki-taka is not about speed it means he doesn't understand what's tiki-taka. When you pass the ball slowly and sideways like Barca now, that's keeping possession only but not tiki-taka.

George_Costanza said:

Kovac is an idiot! Tiki-taka means fast circulation, passes and creating chances. So saying tiki-taka is not about speed it means he doesn't understand what's tiki-taka. When you pass the ball slowly and sideways like Barca now, that's keeping possession only but not tiki-taka.

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Not surprising, german media calls pretty much everything possession related tiki-taka and nobody sees a difference between like spain 2010 and spain 2018 or peps and todays barca or barca and bayern. All the same, and declared "dead" every time barca, spain or pep lose an important game.

George_Costanza said:

Kovac is an idiot! Tiki-taka means fast circulation, passes and creating chances. So saying tiki-taka is not about speed it means he doesn't understand what's tiki-taka. When you pass the ball slowly and sideways like Barca now, that's keeping possession only but not tiki-taka.

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MTL_Barca said:

Not surprising, german media calls pretty much everything possession related tiki-taka and nobody sees a difference between like spain 2010 and spain 2018 or peps and todays barca or barca and bayern. All the same, and declared "dead" every time barca, spain or pep lose an important game.

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A question: if "we" and people from Spain understand that, then WHY both Barca and Spain can't play a true Tiki-Taka anymore?
Barca had Xavi-Iniesta-Busi-Alves-Messi for 3-4-5 years after 2011, but we lost that style.

Spain has enough of world class players for that style, but they aren't winning anymore and they aren't playing that well anymore.

So, a question:
1. have teams moved away from that style due to inadequate players?
If yes, does that mean that a true TikiTaka can work ONLY with a prime Xaxi, since Spain's NT TikiTaka isn't working anymore either?
2. or: players are good enough, we would like to play that way, BUT the opponents have figured out how to lower the efficiency and lethalness of a true TikiTaka from 2009-2011 and this is why we have this slow crap from today?

Just ask yourself:
1. if a true TikiTaka (2008-2012) is THAT good and still that efficient, it would be logical that coaches would like to play it even today, right?
I mean, if that style is THAT good, why playing some other, crappy style? Coaches would have to be idiots to abandon it.
It is like having Messi in your team, and deciding to bench him. Why would you do that?

So, again guys, you have 2 options:
1. either ALL Barca's coaches post Pep and all Spanish NT coaches are idiots who moved away from a mighty TikiTaka
2. or they are not idiots and they just moved away because it is not working anymore regardless of your midfield players, and coaches are trying to find some new, evolved ideas.

Isn't it weird that so many expensive coaches in a row are "that" dumb (they moved away from "a winning formula"), hmm?

Something is so "off" in that theory that TikiTaka is still as efficient as in 2008-2012...

Imo, this is the same as when a player is benched by 5 different coaches in a row, but fans think that coaches are dumb and that something isn't wrong with a player itself.

I didn't want to start this discussion again, you think our "style" is dead. Fine, think what you wanna think. It will remain our style if you like it or not, Cruyff started it and it will continue. So keep complaining forever or accept it.

Regarding coaches, why do you think Lucho doesn't have a job right now? What is Tata doing? Where do you think Valverde will end up after Barca? They just suck in general and also did jack shit to keep our style just like Barto and his friends with their stupid transfers.

Never said its easy to play, quite the opposite is the case imo so yeah maybe it will only be good enough to dominate for years with players like Xavi that understand football. But you know what i'd rather go out in quarter finals playing our style than whatever Valverde is doing there since it also doesn't win the way we build our squad and select our coaches. To be fair, finding a fitying coach is as hard as finding a new Xavi so playing this style successful is way harder than just playing what everybody is doing. But thats what Barca is also about since Cruyff, we don't want to play regular football like everybody else.

I'm just saying that you can't completely judge it because teams play it poorly. Hierro is also no real coach, Spain looked way better before the WC for a reason. Also i never really liked the Spain squad, they have like 30 class CM/AMs but no real wingers, never got a forward to work like Torres or Villa again and almost the whole squad lacks speed and strength. At club level you can fix these things but we did it very poor so we can't even know how it could look today.

So yeah most likely we will never reach that high again because it was by far the best team i've ever seen in my life BUT that still doesn't mean we make the beat out of it currently and it also doesn't mean that every style that likes to have more than 60% possession is tiki-taka style and bayern, barca, city, spain also don't play the exact same football. Thats like saying fast counter attacks are dead because Klopp cant win anymore or defensiv football is dead because URU is out and Atletico cant win the CL. This was just about what the media is saying and why Kovac is using the term tiki-taka and as i explained German media pretty much calls everything spain/barca/pep related tiki-taka. They would even call slow defensiv Valverde 4-4-2 football with Paulinho and Gomes tiki-taka because for them there is no difference at all just like they claimed Heynckes copied Klopps BVB to win the CL with Bayern. It was just about that term so idk why you started that again but i guess im stupid enough to reply so gg to you

Peak Xavi and Iniesta are on a whole different level than so-called "world class players" today. Who are we kidding here?

MTL_Barca said:

I didn't want to start this discussion again, you think our "style" is dead. Fine, think what you wanna think. It will remain our style if you like it or not, Cruyff started it and it will continue. So keep complaining forever or accept it.

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That is way too simplified and wrong.

It would be better to say, Barca has 3 "Barca's DNA" styles:
1. Cruijjf's/Rjkaard's/Van Gaal's/Dutch style
2. then we have Pep's 2008-2012 style which came from Cruijff's and Rijkaard's style, but Pep changed some things (got rid of taller midfielders/strikers and turned into short-technical players and pushed possession into extremes). So, imo, that is an extreme version of Barca's classical style.
3. then we have post Pep's style, where Pep's style obviously isn't working and the opponents have figured out some things how to lower it's efficiency, but we are trying to replicate it without too much success.

Now, I don't "hate" Barca's style.
I love a style no1, I even have Rijkaard at my avatar. This is why I love Barca.
I love even style no2, even though I think that style can never be replicated, you can only get poor copies of it.
I do "hate" though a style no3, this sterile thing from post Pep's era (for example, what Spain played at this world cup)

So, imo, it is quite wrong just to say: Pep's style is Barca's style, or Pep's style is the ONLY Barca's style.
Pep's style is one of many versions of Barca's style.
The world or Barca won't die if we try to evolve from Pep's style.
(I know, we are not playing Pep's style currently, but the obssession to replicate it is quite strong in a lot of fans even today).