Fati_Future_BallonDor
Well-known member
Meanwhile, Messi and CR7 have 0 KO goals between them in the WC in 16 years.
Wow 0. Worldcups are not their tournaments.
Cr150
- Thread starter El Flaco
- Start date
Wow 0. Worldcups are not their tournaments.
BBZ8800
Senior Member
Meanwhile, Messi and CR7 have 0 KO goals between them in the WC in 16 years.
Two best players in a history of football.
Messi has abysmal NT career and 1 CL in Barca's last 10 years.
If Messi and CR7 are two best finishers ever, you know that something is fishy, that a current era has too huge differences between big and small teams, that it is easier than ever to statpad goals, there are more league matches, more NT matches and those two had a chance to play a CL for 15 years in a row unlike Muller, Van Basten and co.
KingLeo10
Senior Member
They're ultra dominant when they have stacked teams, which they did on the club level.
Not so dominant outside of their element. I have both, obviously, GOAT tier, but they're in the mix with 3-4 other players like Pele, Maradona, Cruyff etc.
BBZ8800
Senior Member
This will sound cruel, but if NT are not their tournaments and if Messi has 1 CL from 2012-2021, what is exactly Messi's tournament?
Statpading at Camp Nou vs Girona&Granada?
Zero in NT matches, MIA and sulking in a CL matches.
Everything is overhyped in a modern internet era.
Even two GOATs.
soul24rage
Senior Member
tbf, you can say the same thing about nostalgia as well.
KingLeo10
Senior Member
You have a point that I agree with but then you blow things out of proportion with cherry picking...
Messi's tournament is still the CL. He still has 46 CL KO goals in ~60 CL KO games and 3 CLs and some of the best SF/finals performances.
My point was that Messi and CR7 have amazing club careers (yes, they had more opportunities in CL but 50 and 60 CL KO goals is still a lot) when things are in their favor and not so great outings in the WC when they don't have the best team around. I think it speaks to them being system players/reliant on others more than anything.
I also think the greats of the past dealt better with adversity. Maradona, R9, Beckenbauer (played with a broken shoulder in a WC semi final and barely lost) etc.
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serghei
Senior Member
None of that changes what I said. Brazil in 1994 were World Cup winners. In 98 Final. In 2002 World Cup Winners. It was clear even before Ronaldo that Brazil in the 90s and early 00's was a strong side.
Portugal has never won a World Cup. Ever. Argentina won the last one 34 years ago.
You can't compare Ronaldo in an absolutely stacked Brazil generation with guys like Ronaldinho, Rivaldo, Roberto Carlos, Cafu, with Messi and Ronaldo being caught in two mediocre sides. Just look at Brazil's fullback pair FFS. Roberto Carlos and Cafu. That's arguably the best FB pair in the history of football.
When you fucking attack and you have fullbacks going up and wingers going inside, picture this attack front 5: Roberto Carlos, Rivaldo, Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, Cafu.
WTF, it's like FIFA Ultimate Team or a Pepsi commercial in 2002.Ronaldo was unlucky at club level to never have won a CL. He was never on the right team at the right moment. By the time he arrived in Madrid, the Galactico model was losing steam big time. It is what it is. At NT level though, he was part of the last golden Brazil generation. You win on one side, lose on one side. Nobody has everything.
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Mitchell1978
Senior Member
Well you can also say R9 had a mediocre club career and his longevity and durability are shit.
Maradona also had rather poor longevity and durability.
Maradona also had rather poor longevity and durability.
Mitchell1978
Senior Member
He didn't win a WC but still a good NT career....
CR7 isn't among the 10 best finishers of his generation even, his strength has always been his physicalilty and his off the ball movement generating chances for him like maybe only Lewandowski can rival.
the way Messi has outperformed his expected goals probably mean he might be best finisher ever
but there are no relevant stats available of players before 2000-05 so impossible to compare
Fati_Future_BallonDor
Well-known member
thats why both are not GOAT's. R9, Messi and Maradona are the only players in history of football imo who had the potential to become the (offical) GOAT. Messi was at the best position after 2012. 2015 he had the chance again but he missed after 3 humilations in a row. Also he should have won the world cup or give atleast a memorable performance but from their abilities these three are the potential GOAT's.
Fati_Future_BallonDor
Well-known member
Messi and R9 are the finishing GOAT's. I see an another man who grow up and could go in this list. His name is Erling....Erling Haaland.
BBZ8800
Senior Member
You know how we measure goals per minute and goals per shots ratios to get a better picture?
Let's do it for Muller and Van Basten:
Muller, CL participations:
1970, 0 goals in 2 matches
1973, 11 goals in 6 matches
1974, 8 goals in 9 matches = CL title
1975, 5 goals in 7 matches (Bayern was free in the round of 32) = CL win
1976, 5 goals in 9 matches = CL win
1977, 5 goals in 6 matches, Kod in quarters
If I counted correctly, he played:
6 CLs, won 3
He played 39 matches, scored 34 goals, lol.
Messi has 146/118, 0.81 goals per match.
Muller has 0.87.
Muller won 50% of Champions cups played.
Messi will have 4/16 this season.
Even if we give him 2006, when he played 2-3 matches. That is 25% of CLs won.
Or 20% without 2006'.
He played at only 2 World cups.
Scored 14 goals, lol (Messi and CR7 say hi), scoring a winning goal in 1974's final in Germany:Holland 2:1.
Van Basten
3 participations with Ajax
Milan:
89: 10 goals, CL title
90: 6 goals, CL title
91: quarters
92: --
93: CL final, 6 goals
Forever injured after that
So, he played 7 CLs, won 2 and lost 1 final.
So, again a better percentage than Messi.
Not to mention that he won Euros in 88 with his wondergoal against Russia.
So, here is the answer WHY Messi and Cr7 have 100+ CL goals: because their teams played in a CL regardless if they won a title or not.
In the old times, Barca wouldn't play at all in a CL in 2009.
So, Messi and CR7 aren't actually better in a CL than some other all time greats.
Even worse, Messi is behind them even in NT stats and titles.
And what is left?
La liga goals.
But again, the difference between big and small teams was never as big as today which is resulting in matches with 20 shots and 6:0 trashings, or 11:1 in CR7's case.
CL back then had 9 matches, today we have 13.
Leagues had 34 matches, today we have 38.
On NT level we have tons of matches and new tournaments.
On a club level we have tons of new irrelevant titles like: Spanish supercup, European supercup, World club champion etc.
So, guys from a current era can statpad titles, supercup titles, league goals and CL goals.
Ok, I know, today we have 10 big teams in a CL, compared to 5-6 in 70s.
But then eastern European teams were like NT teams because of a 3 foreigner rule.
So teams from Russia, former Yugoslavia (Croatia&Serbia etc), Poland were basically NT teams of those countries.
Anyway, I don't agree that Messi and CR7 together are the two best players ever.
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KingLeo10
Senior Member
No one is saying this. What I'm saying is that both are GOAT tier.
What you're also not accounting for is that Van Basten, Muller, and co didn't participate in the CL/European cup outside of their prime, both because of the format at the time and also because they didn't have longevity.
You can't simply compare 2 in 7 for Van Basten to 4 in 16 for Messi, for instance.
BBZ8800
Senior Member
Ok, but in their prime:
Muller had 3 CLs in a row 74, 75, 76 + World cup 74
Van Basten 2 Cls in 1989 and 1990 and Euros in 1988.
What was Messi's prime?
2 Cls in 3 years or 3 Cls in 7 years?
Muller on his prime had only 5-6 CL attempts.
Van Basten had 4 (2 wins, 1 final).
So, even if you look at primes, when you remove emotions and Barca glasses, it is hard to say: Messi's peak was better titles wise.
Again, that's even without NT titles.
About Muller, ok, Germany was always strong.
But Dutch were eternal losers with zero titles ever.
Their only NT title ever came in 1988 with Van Basten, Gullit and Rijkaard.
Euro 88 had only 5 matches per team.
Van Basten scored 5, scoring for 2:1 against Germany in semis in the 88th minute and scoring for 2:0 in a final against Russia.
So, both Muller's and Van Basten's CL peak was equal or better than Messi's.
Yet, both of them paired CL streaks with World cup/Euros where both Muller and Van Basten were top scorers, key players and scored winning goals in semis and finals.
Yet our GOAT Messi has zero goals on a WC in his career, iirc.
The only thing in which Messi is better is consistency in La liga and longetivity.
And magical solo runs in his prime.
KingLeo10
Senior Member
Muller in his prime was finishing outside top 4 in Bundesliga but participating in the European cup because Bayern were winners (they finished like 8th or 10th one season lol). People would lose their mind if Messi in his prime finished outside top 2, let along top 4.
The comparison would also be fair if Messi in his prime had the caliber of Beckenbauer, Breitner, Rijkaard, Gullit as teammates on the NT level.
So, when you look at context and remove cherry picked numbers/numbers found to support a predetermined conclusion/narrative (rather than look at numbers to infer a conclusion/narrative), it is hard to say Van Basten or Muller were the level of Messi. Together, they were named the best player in the world 5 times? Messi got the same amount in 7 years.
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