Luis Suárez

Stoichkov1

New member
While I agree, you can't drop someone scoring goals at a rate of knots. That would be stupid... Earlier in the season I was all for sending him to the wolves though.



No we don't. We have Messi...

All that said, I'm not going to lie... The squad is coming together nicely, we have a good mix of players, apart from a deep lying playmaker. Valverde's problem is Messi and Suarez in the same 11.

Messi as a false 9 doesn't work anymore for different reasons:

1) The opponents got used to it and know how to neutralize him. Without a striker who makes runs behind the defenders the team would be again in full messidependencia mode and we would have even more difficulties to score against teams that park the bus;

2) Messi is 30 years old and can't play as a false 9 anymore. He walks/runs only 8km per match while the false 9 position requires a players that drops deep and at the same makes runs in the box like a striker, Messi would be
exhausted after 2/3 matches;

3) You need players and wingers who understand and practiced the system.

We would play even worse than we played under Tata in 2014.
 
M

MessiCam

Guest
Messi as a false 9 doesn't work anymore for different reasons:

1) The opponents got used to it and know how to neutralize him. Without a striker who makes runs behind the defenders the team would be again in full messidependencia mode and we would have even more difficulties to score against teams that park the bus;

2) Messi is 30 years old and can't play as a false 9 anymore. He walks/runs only 8km per match while the false 9 position requires a players that drops deep and at the same makes runs in the box like a striker, Messi would be
exhausted after 2/3 matches;

3) You need players and wingers who understand and practiced the system.

We would play even worse than we played under Tata in 2014.
Repeating this tripe over and over doesn’t make it right. Messi expends about the same amount of energy as he he always has and no, you don’t need a striker to make runs in behind the defence. Wingers do that all the time. They don’t stay on the flanks... They cut in when in the final third.

As a matter of fact, what Messi is doing right now is basically that of a False 9 without the title. Watch the Alaves game or any game in which Dembele features again and notice where Suarez, Messi and Coutinho/Dembele are positioned when Barça are in possession. Messi is smack in the centre with the other 2 flanking him.
 

Alik

Moderator
Messi as a false 9 doesn't work anymore for different reasons:

1) The opponents got used to it and know how to neutralize him. Without a striker who makes runs behind the defenders the team would be again in full messidependencia mode and we would have even more difficulties to score against teams that park the bus;

2) Messi is 30 years old and can't play as a false 9 anymore. He walks/runs only 8km per match while the false 9 position requires a players that drops deep and at the same makes runs in the box like a striker, Messi would be
exhausted after 2/3 matches;

3) You need players and wingers who understand and practiced the system.

We would play even worse than we played under Tata in 2014.

Messi was playing false 9 to great success (even by his own standards) at the beginning of the season whilst Suarez was injured.
 

Stoichkov1

New member
Repeating this tripe over and over doesn’t make it right. Messi expends about the same amount of energy as he he always has and no, you don’t need a striker to make runs in behind the defence. Wingers do that all the time. They don’t stay on the flanks... They cut in when in the final third.

As a matter of fact, what Messi is doing right now is basically that of a False 9 without the title. Watch the Alaves game or any game in which Dembele features again and notice where Suarez, Messi and Coutinho/Dembele are positioned when Barça are in possession. Messi is smack in the centre with the other 2 flanking him.

I watch all games and Suarez is the most advanced player on the pitch with Messi behind him.
 
M

MessiCam

Guest
Messi was playing false 9 to great success (even by his own standards) at the beginning of the season whilst Suarez was injured.

It useless talking about this. Nobody wants to listen to reason.

Remove anyone of Suarez or Messi and the side finds balance very easily. Play them both and you have to switch to a 3 man defence as Lucho discovered.

There is a reason why Valverde deployed Coutinho on the right against Alaves... Playing Coutinho on the left would have resulted in a lopsided right midfield again because someone would have to cover for Messi.
 

henias

New member
Messi as a false 9 doesn't work anymore for different reasons:

1) The opponents got used to it and know how to neutralize him. Without a striker who makes runs behind the defenders the team would be again in full messidependencia mode and we would have even more difficulties to score against teams that park the bus;

2) Messi is 30 years old and can't play as a false 9 anymore. He walks/runs only 8km per match while the false 9 position requires a players that drops deep and at the same makes runs in the box like a striker, Messi would be
exhausted after 2/3 matches;

3) You need players and wingers who understand and practiced the system.

We would play even worse than we played under Tata in 2014.

On the contrary, false 9 is the only way Messi can allow his creativity and decision making to explode expotentially in the final third and be unpredictable at the same time. The reason he walks is to save all his energy in the final third, burst of speeds in between defence before striking the ball into the net, which is why he is so effective despite being the one who runs the least off the ball. His offensive output is crazy, dribbles, passes, splitting up of defence, not to mention his goal conversion.

If opponents got used to Messi, he wouldnt end up with 23 goals this season and arguably even more devastating than the past two seasons. There's a reason why Messi is on another level for the past decade and still going.

Having a fixed striker is actually more predictable for the opponent and easy to neutralise. U could already witness how the 4-2-3-1 against Alaves is so ineffective.

Messi's performance against Juventus sums up how good he is as a false 9 and him telling Dembele to make that cutting run is pretty evident how he is so effective in such a system.

If u have Messi in such form in your team, anyone would build a team around him instead of making a system to accomodate Suarez. Luckily Suarez has got back his sharpness and is a decent RF/RW, if not EV might have switched to the 4231.

I do agree we need decent wingers/fullbacks who is lethal at goal BUT needs to accomodate Messi on a similar wavelength, like Jordi Alba, and I'm sure Messi will tell Dembele what to do unlike Snake Jr who wants his own spotlight.
 
M

MessiCam

Guest
I watch all games and Suarez is the most advanced player on the pitch with Messi behind him.
Let’s put this to the test...

9CA03A63-00E4-4143-AB9D-1BB0EE3E2485.jpg
Against Espanyol.

46E77AE1-1B92-4797-8278-460E4E2B51FF.jpg
Same game as above, only Dembele substituted in for Deulofeu.

229F2896-036B-46D0-A520-DA2B3FF41C0A.jpg
Against Juventus

EAAD37D9-E5B8-4BE3-ABA2-A8B0AB08BF91.jpg
Against Levante. Take note that Dembélé was subbed off and Messi and Suárez moved further right as a result.

These are just the games Dembélé featured in when both Messi and Suárez played.
 

Stoichkov1

New member
On the contrary, false 9 is the only way Messi can allow his creativity and decision making to explode expotentially in the final third and be unpredictable at the same time. The reason he walks is to save all his energy in the final third, burst of speeds in between defence before striking the ball into the net, which is why he is so effective despite being the one who runs the least off the ball. His offensive output is crazy, dribbles, passes, splitting up of defence, not to mention his goal conversion.

If opponents got used to Messi, he wouldnt end up with 23 goals this season and arguably even more devastating than the past two seasons. There's a reason why Messi is on another level for the past decade and still going.

Having a fixed striker is actually more predictable for the opponent and easy to neutralise. U could already witness how the 4-2-3-1 against Alaves is so ineffective.

Messi's performance against Juventus sums up how good he is as a false 9 and him telling Dembele to make that cutting run is pretty evident how he is so effective in such a system.

If u have Messi in such form in your team, anyone would build a team around him instead of making a system to accomodate Suarez. Luckily Suarez has got back his sharpness and is a decent RF/RW, if not EV might have switched to the 4231.

I do agree we need decent wingers/fullbacks who is lethal at goal BUT needs to accomodate Messi on a similar wavelength, like Jordi Alba, and I'm sure Messi will tell Dembele what to do unlike Snake Jr who wants his own spotlight.

Disagree, maybe you forgot the 2012-13 and 2013-14 seasons. I disagree that Messi at 30 years old is better without a striker in front of him but even if it's true the team would be so Messi dependent that we would have no chance to win the CL. We looked absolutely clueless against top teams in 2013 and 2014 if Messi had a bad day. Messi saved us in 2013 against Milan and against PSG we couldn't create a single chance and we would have been eliminated if Messi didn't come off the bench. Against Bayern 7-0, and in 2014 it was even worse.

Without Suarez we would become an improved version of Argentina, but still basically a one-man team, more than we are now.
 

Stoichkov1

New member
Let’s put this to the test...

View attachment 7634
Against Espanyol.

View attachment 7635
Same game as above, only Dembele substituted in for Deulofeu.

View attachment 7636
Against Juventus

View attachment 7637
Against Levante. Take note that Dembélé was subbed off and Messi and Suárez moved further right as a result.

These are just the games Dembélé featured in when both Messi and Suárez played.

Your charts show that Suarez is the most advanced player on the pich.
 
M

MessiCam

Guest
I don't understand what you are trying to say by showing me these charts.

Because you said Messi can’t function as a False 9 any longer due to age and that he needs a striker ahead of him. I contested that by showing you his current role is basically that of a False 9 whenever Dembele plays even with Suarez around.

The illustrations are just the proof. Messi’s influence on games is far greater when he is a False 9. Always has been. He scores and assists more regularly. How this is even a debate is remarkable.

Now you must come with a counter argument.
 

JamDav1982

Senior Member
Because you said Messi can’t function as a False 9 any longer due to age and that he needs a striker ahead of him. I contested that by showing you his current role is basically that of a False 9 whenever Dembele plays even with Suarez around.

The illustrations are just the proof. Messi’s influence on games is far greater when he is a False 9. Always has been. He scores and assists more regularly. How this is even a debate is remarkable.

Now you must come with a counter argument.

His last great CL campaign was at RW.

There is no way the team should go back to false nine and wide players.

Messi should play as he does now with more or less a free role and Suarez occupying the CBs a lot of the time.
 

Stoichkov1

New member
Because you said Messi can’t function as a False 9 any longer due to age and that he needs a striker ahead of him. I contested that by showing you his current role is basically that of a False 9 whenever Dembele plays even with Suarez around.

The illustrations are just the proof. Messi’s influence on games is far greater when he is a False 9. Always has been. He scores and assists more regularly. How this is even a debate is remarkable.

Now you must come with a counter argument.

You showed me charts where Suarez is the most advanced player on the pitch

Messi is definitely not a false 9 when Suarez plays.
 

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