Would you say that PSG is the 4th to 7th largest football club in Europe ?

KingMessi said:

In terms of current sporting ability, they break top 10, easily. In terms of brand value, prestige, fanbase? Not top 10. Not yet.

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Icarium said:

If they continue their project they will be, but for me they already are in top 10.

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I rate them highly, but not top10, not even in sporting ability, proof of this, just watch how many players they'll get rid off in the summer, probably their entire attack + cabaye + vdw + sirigu + motta + Mattuidi .... (all this is speculative of course)

The problem they will face is wether to acquire young talents and bet on them (risking some fails), like they amazingly well did so with Marqui/Verratti, or "veterans" like Zlatan, Maxwell, etc .. to have experience in the big competitions, I think they'll need a perfect mix of the 2, problem with the veterans is they often have already won everything they could, and are just there for the money, you can see zlatan's will on the field is miles away that of marco's for example..

Zlatan never won the cl
Matuidi leaving ? i don't know about that. The other are damaged goods.

TornAndFrayed said:

Zlatan never won the cl
Matuidi leaving ? i don't know about that. The other are damaged goods.

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I know that, yet he played in it a lot, before the match all the french media were making an argument of the CL experience that Zlatan and Maxwell have, he also played in several leagues so that gives him experience, though at this point he's obviously just cashing in one last time before joining MLS. More of a liability than an advantage.

About Mattuidi, I wouldn't be surprised, he's always part of the transfert rumours/doubts, and tbh, as hard working as he is, he's not world class, and if you're talking about being top4 in Europe, he's not enough, neither is Rabiot.

Well you see, you could arguably say that 3 to 8 starting players could be sold this year.. so yeah; still A LOT of work to do.

I'll give you that you have a GREAT base to work from in Marqui - Verrati - TS - DL (arguably) - Lucas - Pastore

footyfan said:

Your consistent use of 'then' as a conjunction in a lot of your posts is very interesting. Is this is a translation thing, from que or puis or something? You can replace 'then' with a comma (or even completely omit the word) and you would be grammatically and/or colloquially correct.

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What has that to do with anything? English is not my mother tongue (in fact it is my third language) and everyone is fully capable of understanding what I am writing.

Man Utd is nowhere near being the biggest club in the world. The only thing they excel in/are comparable with compared to the likes of RM, FCB, Bayern, AC Milan etc. is the financial aspect (estimated value of the club and revenues) and fanbase.

In terms of trophies won (the most important parameter IMO) they are behind RM, FCB and Bayern both domestically and internationally (European and international club titles).

Also what's with the strange claim of FC Barcelona falling behind once Messi retires or leaves? You do realize that FC Barcelona is the club that has been home to the biggest stars in world football and that FCB players have won a record number of Ballon d'Or awards (10), as well as a record number of FIFA World Player of the Year awards (7)? FCB has always been famed for having the greatest players/stars alongside RM. No need to even list the many all-time greats that once played for FCB.

FCB already has the most popular footballer outside of Messi and C. Ronaldo in Neymar.

Leo_Messi said:

What has that to do with anything? English is not my mother tongue (in fact it is my third language) and everyone is fully capable of understanding what I am writing.

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No need to be so defensive, I was just curious because I have seen many other Romance language speakers have the same vocab.

Leo_Messi said:

Man Utd is nowhere near being the biggest club in the world. The only thing they excel in/are comparable with compared to the likes of RM, FCB, Bayern, AC Milan etc. is the financial aspect (estimated value of the club and revenues) and fanbase.

In terms of trophies won (the most important parameter IMO) they are behind RM, FCB and Bayern both domestically and internationally (European and international club titles).

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Agreed, and as I said it's expected that Europeans will put trophies at the top. However, for me, "biggest/largest" connotes value of the club and fan base. Reasonably speaking, that's what biggest means.

Leo_Messi said:

Also what's with the strange claim of FC Barcelona falling behind once Messi retires or leaves? You do realize that FC Barcelona is the club that has been home to the biggest stars in world football and that FCB players have won a record number of Ballon d'Or awards (10), as well as a record number of FIFA World Player of the Year awards (7)? FCB has always been famed for having the greatest players/stars alongside RM. No need to even list the many all-time greats that once played for FCB.

FCB already has the most popular footballer outside of Messi and C. Ronaldo in Neymar.

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And...what's your point? No matter how many great players Barca had, they were never at the same scale revenues and fan base wise when compared to United or Madrid. 5 of those Ballon D'Ors have come in the last 10 years and 4 of them were won by a single player. As I have already mentioned, before Messi (and Pep's team), Barca were languishing in 9th place in terms of club value. And this was just after the Ronaldinho peak years, when he was by far the single most popular player in the world. Maybe, accept that what you are seeing currently with Messi, who is a once in a generation player, is probably not replicable in the future - because he is THAT special. btw I am one of those viewers who nowadays only tunes into Barca to watch Messi. If he's gone, and Barca don't adequately replace him (very likely because Messi is kinda irreplaceable), I will stop watching Barcelona. And I wouldn't be surprised at all if there were a lot more viewers like me.

Furthermore, Juve and Milan are the other two clubs with really high Ballon D'Or winners, and look where they are now because they didn't adequately replenish their squads.

Mehssi said:

About Mattuidi, I wouldn't be surprised, he's always part of the transfert rumours/doubts, and tbh, as hard working as he is, he's not world class, and if you're talking about being top4 in Europe, he's not enough, neither is Rabiot.

Well you see, you could arguably say that 3 to 8 starting players could be sold this year.. so yeah; still A LOT of work to do.

I'll give you that you have a GREAT base to work from in Marqui - Verrati - TS - DL (arguably) - Lucas - Pastore

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I'm not a PSG supporter.
Matuidi, Verratti, Marquinhos, TS, Lucas, Pastore are all part of the core, you might not be sold by Matuidi's gigantic work but PSG know better on this one. If the player wants to leave, then he may be sold in order to get pogba or some flashier midfielder.
Rabiot just turned 20.

footyfan said:

No need to be so defensive, I was just curious because I have seen many other Romance language speakers have the same vocab.



Agreed, and as I said it's expected that Europeans will put trophies at the top. However, for me, "biggest/largest" connotes value of the club and fan base. Reasonably speaking, that's what biggest means.



And...what's your point? No matter how many great players Barca had, they were never at the same scale revenues and fan base wise when compared to United or Madrid. 5 of those Ballon D'Ors have come in the last 10 years and 4 of them were won by a single player. As I have already mentioned, before Messi (and Pep's team), Barca were languishing in 9th place in terms of club value. And this was just after the Ronaldinho peak years, when he was by far the single most popular player in the world. Maybe, accept that what you are seeing currently with Messi, who is a once in a generation player, is probably not replicable in the future - because he is THAT special. btw I am one of those viewers who nowadays only tunes into Barca to watch Messi. If he's gone, and Barca don't adequately replace him (very likely because Messi is kinda irreplaceable), I will stop watching Barcelona. And I wouldn't be surprised at all if there were a lot more viewers like me.

Furthermore, Juve and Milan are the other two clubs with really high Ballon D'Or winners, and look where they are now because they didn't adequately replenish their squads.

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united have never been a european juggernaut. you are confusing them with ac milan.

Clubs like Arsenal being placed in top 10 clubs in the world

Icarium said:

Real
Barca
United
Bayern

These are the top 4 biggest/largest clubs in the world. After that chelsea, arsenal, psg and juventus are there but hard to rank them. City, liverpool, atletico and dortmund comes next i guess. This is just a random list, some team might sneak into the list but it just escapes my mind. This is solely based on who is "bigger" not who is better.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forbes'_list_of_the_most_valuable_football_clubs

surprised to see milan so up and psg, atletico so down. Well couple more years will take psg to top 10.

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I don't know why is anyone rating Arsenal as the top club
Also, Milan is poor in the last few years, but again, that is because the whole Italian football collapsed because they introduced high taxes on player's wages and they collapsed around 2003-2005.

In terms of CL titles, in the last 25 years:
Milan 5 titles
Barca 4 titles
Real 4 titles
Man. Utd 2 titles

Finals:
-- Milan 8
-- Juve 4
-- Barca 5
-- Bayern 5
-- Real 4
-- Man. Utd 4

For example, Arsenal has zero titles, and 1 final in the last 25 years.
I will never understand why are they rated as high among many of football fans.
They are just a normal stronger team from a stronger league, like Roma, Monaco or Schalke :/

Anyway, currently, in the last 4-5 years, top teams are:
-- Barca, Real, Bayern, Chelsea
-- then Juve, Man. City, Atletico, Borussia, Psg
-- no Arsenal for me on any list

In general, over the last 10-20 years, the biggest and most famous European teams are:
-- Barca, Real, Bayern, Man. Utd, Milan
-- Juventus, Chelsea, Inter, Liverpool
-- then Borussia

-- then a random European teams like Arsenal, Psg, Monaco, Atletico, Man. City, Porto

So, imo, currently, Psg is among 5-10 teams TODAY.
But over the last 10-15-20 years, it is on places 13-14-15

MaxY said:

Clubs like Arsenal being placed in top 10 clubs in the world

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Lol, exactly.

Such a huge love and admiration for Arsenal is imo, one of the biggest modern football mysteries

BBZ8800 said:

Such a huge love and admiration for Arsenal is imo, one of the biggest modern football mysteries

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I would say that Arsenal is mostly preferable by hipsters..

footyfan said:

Furthermore, Juve and Milan are the other two clubs with really high Ballon D'Or winners, and look where they are now because they didn't adequately replenish their squads.

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It is not their fault.
Italian laws caused the problem.

In 90's, Milan and Juve were what are Barca and Real today.
Seria A was by far the most popular league in the world, and all best players were leaving to Seria A.

You know how today, if a player is the best in the world, like Messi, Ney, Cristiano, James, they will want to play in either Real or Barca.
Well, in 90s, almost all best Brasilian, Argentine and French players played in Seria A (and all players from eastern europe, like current Modric and Rakitic, were playing in Seria A)
Only Spanish players were staying in Spain, and German players in Bundesliga, and English players in their EPL, as always.

Even il phenomeno, Brasilian Ronaldo left Barca after only 1 year to play in a famous Seria A back then, because ALL best players were playing there back then, and Italian teams were always in CL finals, plus, Italian teams were the richest back then and were offering bigger salaries than Spanish and English teams.

For example, just look at the golden era of Seria A:
CL finals:
1989: Milan:Steaua 4:0
1990: Milan:Benfica 1:0
-- 1991: Crvena Zvezda (Yugoslavia):Marseille (France)
1992: Barca:Sampdoria 1:0
1993: Marseille:Milan 1:0
1994: Milan:Barcelona 4:0
1995: Ajax:Milan 1:0
1996: Juventus:Ajax 1:0
1997: Borussia:Juventus 3:1
1998: Real:Juventus 1:0

So, check that era when Seria A was the richest.
-- from 1989 to 1998, in 10 CL finals in a row, Italia had their team in 9 out of 10 finals
-- they only missed a final in 1991

-- now, check that era, and count how many Spanish teams were in finals:
-- Barca 1992 and 1994
-- Real 1998

English teams?
= zero, lol

German teams?
-- Borussia 1997

French teams?
-- Marseille 91 and 93

-- so:
-- Italy played in 9 finals
-- Spain in 3
-- France in 2
-- Germany in 1
-- England in 0

Seria A was the absolute "winner" and a fancy league back then.
And as I have said in other posts, their laws caused problems after 2000' and their teams were slowly having more and more financial problems in early 2000s and after that they couldn't compete anymore with mostly Spanish and English teams who emerged as filthy rich in the last 10-15 years.

So, Real and Barca back then were something like Chelsea or Atletico today.
Good teams, but not considered as the best, like Milan, Juve (current Barca, Real, Bayern)

Also, Seria A was so hard, famous and competitive back then that Juventus directors used to say during 90's:
-- we don't care if Milan is winning Champions league titles, as long as we are winning the Seria A title
-- for us (this is what they used to say): winning Seria A is like winning a world cup. You are a world champions when you win Seria A.
-- and when you win Champions league, that is just "some" European trophy, not as important as Seria A.

So, a lot of Italians back then rated Seria A as more important/stronger competition than A CL...

Milan:Juve and Milan:Inter were world's hottest matches during 90s like Barca:Real today.

The title is wrong ; it should be team, not club. They are a shit club, created only in the 70's. They don't have any real history to be in the top 7 . They are not even the biggest club in France (and I don't support any team in France saying that).

MaxY said:

Clubs like Arsenal being placed in top 10 clubs in the world

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BBZ8800 said:

Such a huge love and admiration for Arsenal is imo, one of the biggest modern football mysteries

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Frodo_FCB said:

I would say that Arsenal is mostly preferable by hipsters..

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This

They are the most popular club in the world (especially dem Americans love them) because they're the best team in the world that doesn't compete for major trophies. Only some Mickey Mouse Cups here and there, sometimes 10 years of nothing, making it impossible to label a fan a 'gloryhunter'. So yeah, hipsters choice.

But yeah, in my eyes 4th to 7th largest club is where PSG are atm. Barcelona, Bayern, Man Utd and Real are teams clearly larger than them, after that it's up to discussion.

Prestige, revenue, profit, financial power, fan base, team quality, current success as basis for judgement... I'd say those teams are still ahead:
Bayern, Real, Barca, United, Chelsea, and to an lesser extend Arsenal and Juve, so that makes them 8th.

Barca, Real, Bayern and United are roughly equal size, all things considered. Wont argue which of them are biggest, not much to seperate, but they are the top 4. Well, it wont be wrong to mention Milan/Juve in that lot either, but italian football has faded too much over the last 10 years.