te amo barca
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Except he doesn’t play CM at all?
6 - Carles Alena
- Thread starter raki
- Start date
Except he doesn’t play CM at all?
Respekt_III
Anti-everything
when i say CM i mean it as the AM in the 3 MF positions.
People are crying we don't have have enough creative midfielders and he can potentially help solve that.
Nello
Member
He's played CM plenty of times. A lot more so than Coutinho.
serghei
Senior Member
I'd be excited about this and about Alena if Betis would still be managed by Quique Setien. If such was the case, this would even be a step up from him, because Setien is a better manager than Ernie, and his playing time would certainly go up. But they're not, and this version of Betis is more about counter-attacking than positional possession-based attacking as it was the case under Setien's tenure.
No player would emerge from La Masia with such a crap manager as Valverde. There is a direct correlation between La Masia and a great Barca manager leading the first team. As long as Barca is managed by drift-woods like Valverde, nobody will make a decisive step from youth ranks from the first team.
Rijkaard: Iniesta, Messi.
Pep: Pedro, Busquets, Pique
Lucho: Roberto
Ernie: NOBODY.
No player would emerge from La Masia with such a crap manager as Valverde. There is a direct correlation between La Masia and a great Barca manager leading the first team. As long as Barca is managed by drift-woods like Valverde, nobody will make a decisive step from youth ranks from the first team.
Rijkaard: Iniesta, Messi.
Pep: Pedro, Busquets, Pique
Lucho: Roberto
Ernie: NOBODY.
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BBZ8800
Senior Member
Rijkaard: club ended around a 5th place in several seasons before him.
We even played Uefa Cup in 2004.
Also, no one in our team has ever won any World cups, Euros, CL and barely La ligas.
It was easier to rely on youngstera when we were so bad.
Pep: took Rijkkard's team and sold a lot of superstars.
Post Pep: a team who won 2 Euros, 1 World cups, 3 Cls and 5 La ligas in 8 years.
Not to mention that football has evolved and that chances are smaller and smaller that we will ever again see La Masia kid being good enough to play for Barca.
Oh, and don't forget that we cheated with La Masia in 90s and 00s.
If we would have followed the rules, we probably wouldn't have bought half of: Pedro, Busi, Messi or Iniesta.
In a dreamworld: La Masia in Rijkaard's and Pep's era was a magical place where we worked wonders.
In a real world: we were cheating, breaking rules, had a monopolly on domestic kids.
Plus a level of European football was weaker, and we weren't on top like today, so those kids (whom we shouldn't had in our academy in the first place) had a way higher chances to make it in the first team.
Imo, even if a father Pep will come for his classical 3-years short term spell, he won't be able to do too much from our current youngsters.
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serghei
Senior Member
BBZ, we know each other a long time already. Over 5 years. It's clear we'd maybe agree on some small things, but we're never going to see eye to eye on the most important aspects regarding how a football team should function. Cheers though... 
Knowng this, it will take a really supernatural debating effort to even have a hope of convincing you or me that one of us is right and the other is wrong. I suspect this is why we've rarely been part of very long debates. Each of us know there is no common ground to be reached, nor is any hope one would convince the other. I respect you because I believe you're a nice person, nicer than me anyway.
Knowng this, it will take a really supernatural debating effort to even have a hope of convincing you or me that one of us is right and the other is wrong. I suspect this is why we've rarely been part of very long debates. Each of us know there is no common ground to be reached, nor is any hope one would convince the other. I respect you because I believe you're a nice person, nicer than me anyway.
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BBZ8800
Senior Member
BBZ, we know each other a long time already. Over 5 years. It's clear we'd maybe agree on some small things, but we're never going to see eye to eye on the most important aspects regarding how a football team should function. Cheers though...
Look, I can even agree on you about EV on a lot of things.
But blaming any coach, even the worst coach in the world for not having any youngsters in a team when your biggest prospects in recent years were fckng Alena, Puig, Oriol, Abel Ruiz and Araujo is, well=living in a dreamland.
EV sucks and everything.
But our youth players are shit.
Again, if you open the doors to a fact that we cheated insanely in 2000s, you need to ask yourself how many od our famous La Masia players would we have if we played: fair play.
Look at a current era:
Klopp and Liverpool have a new gen of scouting, psychological tests and profiles, using stats, their players can run like robots and are barely injured.
Red Bull is doing the same and soon majority of clubs will do the same.
Then you have Barca, and we have a business and scouting model from 1998:
Our biggest prospect is Riki Puig who has a body of a 13 years old teen girl.
Do you think that Liverpool or modern European teams would rely on someone like Riki?
Hell no.
That can happen only at Barca.
Look further:
Klopp and Liverpool are looking for fighters, warriors and robots.
Our kids are: a bunch of too nice choirboys.
And our transfers are Arthur with horrible stamina, turtle pace and Griezz without pace and dribbles.
Klopp and his team are doing psychological estimations of their potential signings.
Yet, we have Dumbele who would fail on IQ test or Arthur who is snowboarding, driving scooter and smoking.
Then, modern European teams are moving towards pace, physique, endurance.
And we have a coach and his staff who barely do any physical regimes on training grounds.
When you sum that we can't cheat anymore, that other teams use techology and rely on physique and psychology... do you think that a problem of La Masia is EV or that our club is still buying and training players as if we are stuck in 2005, when a nice technique and passing skills were all you needed to succeed?
Also, as [MENTION=5226]Wolfe[/MENTION] often says, we don't have leaders and captains who will help to kids and develop them like we had in Puyol, Xavi, Ronnie.
Who will teach those kids?
Messi?
Pique?
Alba?
Suarez?
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serghei
Senior Member
BBZ, when you say EV sucks, that's like saying a movie director sucks and blame the actors for how the movie ended up. When you say the manager sucks, that's it for me. You can't draw any other conclusion other than the only conclusion there is do be drawn: THE MANAGER NEEDS REPLACING ASAP. So we can be sure most of the shit that's happening isn't his doing.
You can't say EV sucks and then build an argument which only makes sense if the manager doesn't suck. Once you have a guy who is in charge of every tactical and every staff decision in the team, and you think he sucks, you can't go behind that.
At a club like Barcelona, who has access to the finest echelon of players, except few isolated cases, you can only draw valid conclusions about players once you have a proper manager. If you don't agree with that, there is no conversation to be had imo.
I will put it clearly right now so you guys will know what my stance is regarding player evaluation. I belive the manager of a team is so central to everything that you can't really be sure a player is shit except in very rare cases.
I mean, I was sure Douglas, or Miranda, or Montoya didn't have what it took, regardless of managers. I can give ore examples of players I was sure they were not good enough, so you guys won't think I stand with the player over the manager any time. Because it's not true.
But the players we talk about, like Semedo, Arthur, Alena. Come on, it's obvious they do things which are inaccessible to avarage players. You CAN NOT be sure these players wouldn't be great under better managers. That's what it is about. We're not talking about the likes of Douglas or Montoya, players you know that they just don't have it. or Gumbaus or Mirandas, dubious talents which aren't worth the investment of time and effort in the first palce. We're talking about players who are up there really close to having a legitimate shot of being great, WITH PROPER MANAGEMENT (can't stress this enough). I think in such close cases, the right manager IS the missing link.
You can't say EV sucks and then build an argument which only makes sense if the manager doesn't suck. Once you have a guy who is in charge of every tactical and every staff decision in the team, and you think he sucks, you can't go behind that.
At a club like Barcelona, who has access to the finest echelon of players, except few isolated cases, you can only draw valid conclusions about players once you have a proper manager. If you don't agree with that, there is no conversation to be had imo.
I will put it clearly right now so you guys will know what my stance is regarding player evaluation. I belive the manager of a team is so central to everything that you can't really be sure a player is shit except in very rare cases.
I mean, I was sure Douglas, or Miranda, or Montoya didn't have what it took, regardless of managers. I can give ore examples of players I was sure they were not good enough, so you guys won't think I stand with the player over the manager any time. Because it's not true.
But the players we talk about, like Semedo, Arthur, Alena. Come on, it's obvious they do things which are inaccessible to avarage players. You CAN NOT be sure these players wouldn't be great under better managers. That's what it is about. We're not talking about the likes of Douglas or Montoya, players you know that they just don't have it. or Gumbaus or Mirandas, dubious talents which aren't worth the investment of time and effort in the first palce. We're talking about players who are up there really close to having a legitimate shot of being great, WITH PROPER MANAGEMENT (can't stress this enough). I think in such close cases, the right manager IS the missing link.
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serghei
Senior Member
There is a term in US law called 'The fruit of the poisonous tree'.
The fruit of the poisonous tree doctrine prevents the prosecution from admitting certain evidence into a criminal case after it has been tainted by a primary illegality.
What does this mean? It means that if you know that a thing was illegal, and that thing had access and influence in all things that came from it, it means all these things are tainted, and doubtful.
Such is the case of Valverde. If you think the manager sucks, how can you know for sure that a player who maybe would've made it under a better manager, didn't also fail because he had a dumb manager at the worst time in his career. You simply don't, and any claim that you do is false.
As I said in the past. You guys have substituted the term 'talented player' to someone like Messi, who isn't just talented, but once in a lifetime talent, to such a degree that his quality can't even be diminished by a crap manager. 90% of the users of this forum would manage Messi, and he would still be a top 5 player in the world. Forget about that. 99% of all talents in the world need help. Messi doesn't. If you think a talented player is that player that makes it even under proven average managers like Valverde, you don't know what you are talking about. If you believe 80% of the Liverpool players (Salah, Alisson, Van Dijk the only exceptions, exceptions now, after 2 years under Klopp that is) would even be half as good under Valverde, again, you don't know what you are talking about.
Let me tell you right now. Imagine a 20-23 year old talent who doesn't have enough experience at Barcelona right now, one that wasn't signed for nearly 100m. Do you know what a manager like Ernesto Valverde is for him? The worst nightmare. A young player who can't produce what the more experienced players can produce at present time. These players only have value when they have a manager who seees 2-3 years ahead. You think 19 years old Busi was better than peak 2008 Yaya Toure?
Fuck no. Busi had no right to play over Toure at DM in 2008. Toure was much better. Stronger, bigger, more experinced, better dribbler, much better shooter, you name it. Busi had not even a single thing he did better than Yaya, at the time he replaced him in the team as a starter. But Guardiola instantly though 1-2 years ahead, and realized that the potential of Busi was much brighter than Yaya would've been capable. That projection thinking is unaccessible to average managers. Guardiola understood Yaya was at his peak right then and there, and judged 19 year old Busi as being capable of going past Yaya's peak in 1-2 years.
So let me tell you something. Young players don't play in the present because they are better than poised and experienced players. They play because they have talent and they are the future. And in order to play, they need someone with guts, who doesn't think about tomorrow, or next game, but next year. But when you have someone whose main concern is to win today so he can keep his job tomorrow, and a clueless board who protects that crap mentality, what's your hope?
The fruit of the poisonous tree doctrine prevents the prosecution from admitting certain evidence into a criminal case after it has been tainted by a primary illegality.
What does this mean? It means that if you know that a thing was illegal, and that thing had access and influence in all things that came from it, it means all these things are tainted, and doubtful.
Such is the case of Valverde. If you think the manager sucks, how can you know for sure that a player who maybe would've made it under a better manager, didn't also fail because he had a dumb manager at the worst time in his career. You simply don't, and any claim that you do is false.
As I said in the past. You guys have substituted the term 'talented player' to someone like Messi, who isn't just talented, but once in a lifetime talent, to such a degree that his quality can't even be diminished by a crap manager. 90% of the users of this forum would manage Messi, and he would still be a top 5 player in the world. Forget about that. 99% of all talents in the world need help. Messi doesn't. If you think a talented player is that player that makes it even under proven average managers like Valverde, you don't know what you are talking about. If you believe 80% of the Liverpool players (Salah, Alisson, Van Dijk the only exceptions, exceptions now, after 2 years under Klopp that is) would even be half as good under Valverde, again, you don't know what you are talking about.
Let me tell you right now. Imagine a 20-23 year old talent who doesn't have enough experience at Barcelona right now, one that wasn't signed for nearly 100m. Do you know what a manager like Ernesto Valverde is for him? The worst nightmare. A young player who can't produce what the more experienced players can produce at present time. These players only have value when they have a manager who seees 2-3 years ahead. You think 19 years old Busi was better than peak 2008 Yaya Toure?
Fuck no. Busi had no right to play over Toure at DM in 2008. Toure was much better. Stronger, bigger, more experinced, better dribbler, much better shooter, you name it. Busi had not even a single thing he did better than Yaya, at the time he replaced him in the team as a starter. But Guardiola instantly though 1-2 years ahead, and realized that the potential of Busi was much brighter than Yaya would've been capable. That projection thinking is unaccessible to average managers. Guardiola understood Yaya was at his peak right then and there, and judged 19 year old Busi as being capable of going past Yaya's peak in 1-2 years.So let me tell you something. Young players don't play in the present because they are better than poised and experienced players. They play because they have talent and they are the future. And in order to play, they need someone with guts, who doesn't think about tomorrow, or next game, but next year. But when you have someone whose main concern is to win today so he can keep his job tomorrow, and a clueless board who protects that crap mentality, what's your hope?
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FinBarcelonafan
Well-known member
There is a term in US law called 'The fruit of the poisonous tree'.
The fruit of the poisonous tree doctrine prevents the prosecution from admitting certain evidence into a criminal case after it has been tainted by a primary illegality.
What does this mean? It means that if you know that a thing was illegal, and that thing had access and influence in all things that came from it, it means all these things are tainted, and doubtful.
Such is the case of Valverde. If you think the manager sucks, how can you know for sure that a player who maybe would've made it under a better manager, didn't also fail because he had a dumb manager at the worst time in his career. You simply don't, and any claim that you do is false.
As I said in the past. You guys have substituted the term 'talented player' to someone like Messi, who isn't just talented, but once in a lifetime talent, to such a degree that his quality can't even be diminished by a crap manager. 90% of the users of this forum would manage Messi, and he would still be a top 5 player in the world. Forget about that. 99% of all talents in the world need help. Messi doesn't. If you think a talented player is that player that makes it even under proven average managers like Valverde, you don't know what you are talking about. If you believe 80% of the Liverpool players (Salah, Alisson, Van Dijk the only exceptions, exceptions now, after 2 years under Klopp that is) would even be half as good under Valverde, again, you don't know what you are talking about.
Let me tell you right now. Imagine a 20-23 year old talent who doesn't have enough experience at Barcelona right now, one that wasn't signed for nearly 100m. Do you know what a manager like Ernesto Valverde is for him? The worst nightmare. A young player who can't produce what the more experienced players can produce at present time. These players only have value when they have a manager who seees 2-3 years ahead. You think 19 years old Busi was better than peak 2008 Yaya Toure?
So let me tell you something. Young players don't play in the present because they are better than poised and experienced players. They play because they have talent and they are the future. And in order to play, they need someone with guts, who doesn't think about tomorrow, or next game, but next year. But when you have someone whose main concern is to win today so he can keep his job tomorrow, and a clueless board who protects that crap mentality, what's your hope?
Brilliant post. I didn't know that about Toure and Busi. Is that the reason why he is so bitter about Barcelona?
serghei
Senior Member
Must be. Was a purely subjective call. He was the better player at the time and was put off strictly by a visionary call by Pep.
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