Ivan Rakitić
- Thread starter Barcaman
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Vilarrubi
New member
Yup back passing merchant ��
Remember most people here agree Rakitic is fine for La Liga, he controls the game.. teams back off, especially at Camp Nou. That's great.
But the big CL games where we've been knocked out the last few seasons are the ones we get judged on the most and Rakitic in those becomes one of, if not the worst player on the field. These are the games he backpasses and shits his pants with the high pressing of the other team.
BarcaMessi
Banned
Key stat missing is turn overs and give aways
Wait for the percentages for De Jong and Arthur.
Wait for the percentages for De Jong and Arthur.
BBZ8800
Senior Member
Ok.
As I have wrote, the first big CL match is in 200 days.
Which trio would you play at home vs Getafe when they will park the bus around their box?
Arthur, so that he can avoid a pressure from... Pique and Lenglet?
Since they will be the only players in our half.
Never_Forget40
Banned
I dont think he will be on the bench, so I would play with Frenkie-Raki-Arthur.
Alik
Moderator
I would start those 3 too. Simple solution to this debate.
Vilarrubi
New member
No..... Rakitic can play.. you cut out the part in the quote where I said most people agree Rakitic is fine for La Liga.
My only problem with that is that if Rakitic is the main starter for most La Liga games, in Valverde's mind that will mean he's indispensable for the big CL games too.. and then the same thing will happen as it has the last 4 seasons.
Do you realise how much you've changed your narrative these past few months? It's pretty amusing to see.
The last few years it's been "height", "physicality", "workhorse" needed for the CL... you got your every wish last season, you got the tallest, most defensive, most conservative football, least like Tika-Taka, Roberto RB... etc it's only now after Liverpool you've stopped mentioning all that lol
I've seen you now admit that players like Frenkie, Arthur are needed for those sort of high pressing games, finally you've seen the light!
But now in order to defend Rakitic in La Liga you're bringing up his goals/assists/shots (which btw aren't anything special at all) vs Arthur/Frenkie and not sure why but Iniesta... which yes I agree he has better stats than them in those areas which helps in La Liga, BUT you do realise that this is the complete OPPOSITE of what you've been saying for so long. I mentioned some of this in the long post that you conveniently ignored, but you've been saying for the past few years that we can field more or less any midfield in La Liga because of "Cheat-code Messi", so we can have midfields like Arthur/Frenkie/Alena and win it easily. Then we needed big, tall, workhorse midfields in CL... now you're saying the opposite!
I think you're putting too much importance in Rakitic's goals/assists and attacking presence in La Liga, partly because you're clutching at straws to defend him.. it's not like he has some sort of Lampard/Gerrard contribution in midfield goals.
You're also thinking too statistically, if you removed Rakitic from the team completely it's not as if no one else would get those goals/assists, like when Ronaldo left Real Benzema has scored way more than he has done for years, other players step up and fill in the gaps.. but we are talking about 4 goals and 5 assists here, not the 50+ of Ronaldo lol
So tbh do I think Rakitic's goals are that important in La Liga? No. You didn't either til recently (Cheat code Messi)
Do I think we could win La Liga without Rakitic in the starting lineup? Yes.
Is it better that our young players get more game time so they get used to Barca/La Liga etc, especially Frenkie and Arthur? Yes.
Is it better Rakitic is out of the starting lineup because that means Valverde won't use him in big CL games because he sees him as indispensable? YES!
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Just hope Raki does the right thing then and hands over half his wages to FDJ seeing that he’ll be doing most of Raki’s work as well as his own
shadows
Member
Considering De Jong will be rotating with Arthur Vidal Puig Alena etc. for the vacant third spot in midfield, while the other 2 spots are "occupied", not sure he would have to hand over the wages
Considering De Jong will be rotating with Arthur Vidal Puig Alena etc. for the vacant third spot in midfield, while the other 2 spots are "occupied", not sure he would have to hand over the wages
As stupid and inept Valverde is there is no way even he will leave FDJ on the bench — I have FDJ as our second best /most important and influential all ready.
Valverde can’t really mess this up , surely ??
shadows
Member
Well considering his go to combination is Rakitic and Busquets for whom being out of form or wetting the bed on the slightest of presses is of no concern while for the third spot it is very much a problem with Arthur being dropped against a fast pressing team like Liverpool... wouldn't be surprised if he ends as a rotational option with Valverde...
BBZ8800
Senior Member
I didn't stop mentioning it.
But for the majority of 25 years of watching Barca in a CL, we played with light midfielders.
And we were losing all the time (until Pep).
And then, since we always had ONLY physically light players, I thought that our ONLY problem is=add some height and muscles.
In the last 2 years, we really did get height and muscles and we were equally as shit as Barca in 90s and prePep.
So, I didn't actually move from physique, but I have figured out the same as in Roberto vs Semedo debate:
1. Roberto is good in attack, bad in defense
Then we though, let's try the opposite, with Semedo, it will surely work better:
2. and then, Semedo is good in defense and bad in attack.
And on larger samples, it is almost as equally as bad which one plays.
We need something different, or BOTH attack and defense for a RB.
So, regarding height, it didn't work in these 2 seasons, this is why I want a mix of Barca's DNA and some physicality.
Further, I have realized over years that we need to make a distinction between La Liga and a CL.
I was always watching a CL and I was obsessed with physique, because we lacked it.
And then, for years I thought that the same principles apply for La Liga.
But no.
For La Liga, you can really play with any midfield and you will probably win La Liga.
So, a lack of height or muscles is not a problem at all in La Liga.
It is a problem against Liverpool though (imagine Busi-Arthur-Puig trio vs current Liverpool).
In short:
1. a recipe is different for La liga and a CL
2. in La liga we can survive with very light and technical players. Not in a CL (it doesn't mean that we have to play EV's way, though)
3, but still, even in La Liga we can't go full retard with let's say Arthur-Puig-Coutinho midfield.
Even in La liga, we need at least SOME degree of defending, and at least 1 guy who can actually tackle the ball and win an aerial duel here and there
So, for the last few years, we usually had "too light" midfield and I wanted at least 1 workhorse.
While today, for the first time ever, people basically want 3 pivots in midfield, who are all more oriented towards defending and getting the ball out of our own half.
So, in terms of balance: the same as how we can't play with 3 light midfielders, or with a trio Paulinho-Raki-Gomes, well, we can't play with 3 pivots either.
Especially in La Liga.
Busi-Frenkie-Arthur might work in a CL, since different rules apply there.
In numbers, for La liga today, I am leaning towards combinations like:
2 light players and 1 Raki
While in a CL:
1 light player and 2 Rakis, or 1 light, 1 middle ground player and 1 Raki.
Also: we always need at least one defensive minded midfielder.
And at least one attacking minded.
At least one very technical guy.
But also at least one workhorse guys etc. So BALANCE.
** After Anfield, I added mental strength, bravery, motivation, leadership into a formula also.
When you sum it all, I see zero balance in Busi-Frenkie-Arthur.
That is the same player cloned three times, more or less.
So tbh do I think Rakitic's goals are that important in La Liga? No. You didn't either till recently (Cheat code Messi)
Do I think we could win La Liga without Rakitic in the starting lineup? Yes.
Is it better that our young players get more game time so they get used to Barca/La Liga etc, especially Frenkie and Arthur? Yes.
Is it better Rakitic is out of the starting lineup because that means Valverde won't use him in big CL games because he sees him as indispensable? YES!
I have replied to Serghei, I think.
And I think that I should stick to it.
This topic reminds me on Dembele's topic.
For 3 Months we had to read how he is a pure gold.
And people who were against him were insulted and bullied.
Then matches came and there is no need to even visit Dembele's thread, since even hard core supporters are giving up on him due to his deadly flaws.
So, I think that you people are doing the same here.
Arthur this, Arthur that. And no one can name 3 matches against smaller teams when he was good in the last season.
He was good against RM, Tottenham and similar, when the opponents were running at him.
Remember Espanyol at home, Sociedad at home, CDR final.
Whenever we needed goals, he was subbed off right away.
So, let's wait for the first matches and first Arthur's matches against parked buses.
If you were right, and he will fit perfectly, my bad.
Let him play.
If he will play the same as in his whole career against parked buses, well, then we'll go back to this topic and continue.
The same as how Konan said: there is one Rakitic in stats, who looks awesome. And a real Rakitic on a field, who looks average.
The same is for me.
I know one Arthur, whom I am watching in matches and who has a looot of big flaws for our level.
And then I see some other dude Arthur in your posts. A total footballer, good against all opponents and a perfect fit for any lineup.
So.. let's take a pause from this debate for a few weeks.
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I get the point that rakitic can be a good starter for the smaller games and group stage ucl (easy teams) but I'd argue we would win those games anyway with a different midfielder in his place. Saying "well who is going to play against all the smaller la liga teams" etc is giving rakitic a lot of credit for these wins, you could probably start ter stegen as a cm and we'd get the win against smaller teams.
It's not like he influences the game to the point where we win the match as demonstrated by 5 goals and 10 assists in 54 apps last year (yes I'm aware that's more than the others). Did those goals/assists earn us more points than the difference to the second placed team? If other cm's (not busquets) were given as many minutes as him they'd have notched up a few more assists and maybe even a goal here and there and then they are almost equal in those stats and yet rakitic is GOOD at attacking but the others BAD? Don't get me wrong I would have him in the squad and do think he's good for the smaller games, I just don't think it's a point that holds as much weight as some people are making out.
It's not like he influences the game to the point where we win the match as demonstrated by 5 goals and 10 assists in 54 apps last year (yes I'm aware that's more than the others). Did those goals/assists earn us more points than the difference to the second placed team? If other cm's (not busquets) were given as many minutes as him they'd have notched up a few more assists and maybe even a goal here and there and then they are almost equal in those stats and yet rakitic is GOOD at attacking but the others BAD? Don't get me wrong I would have him in the squad and do think he's good for the smaller games, I just don't think it's a point that holds as much weight as some people are making out.
JerseyAddict
Well-known member
Well... You can all shit me all you want but I would rather have FDJ - Arthur - Raki midfield than FDJ-Arthur-Busi.
Raki can go forward and shoot (see Cro games) he can drop at CB. While Busi, LEGEND as is, nowdays can oly dragg his ass around. He is slow mou last season. Raki to, but Busi is even more.
You won't see Cou in mid, RP will root on the bench for CDR, Vidal will be "super sub"... S. Roberto is unpredictqble for position.
I am also against Raki-Busi-3rd because it is suicide...
Raki can go forward and shoot (see Cro games) he can drop at CB. While Busi, LEGEND as is, nowdays can oly dragg his ass around. He is slow mou last season. Raki to, but Busi is even more.
You won't see Cou in mid, RP will root on the bench for CDR, Vidal will be "super sub"... S. Roberto is unpredictqble for position.
I am also against Raki-Busi-3rd because it is suicide...
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