Nelson Semedo

JamDav1982

Senior Member
Gomes and Rakitic played as wide men against Bilbao. You want me to show you where the average position of their touches were?

I can if you want but you’ve seemed to have made your mind up already so it would ultimately be pointless.

Nope they didnt play as wide men.

They played inside and the width was taken by the fullbacks. The wider player on the left was Iniesta who like Gomes on the other side played more as an AM on that side than anything.

There were no wingers in those games. Try watching it rather than staring at formations on who scored.

Edit: Atleti game.

For Bilbao game neither Gomes or Raki played as winger and again it was fullbacks who took the width.
 
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MessiCam

Guest
Nope they didnt play as wide men.

They played inside and the width was taken by the fullbacks. The wider player on the left was Iniesta who like Gomes on the other side played more as an AM on that side than anything.

There were no wingers in those games. Try watching it rather than staring at formations on who scored.
I watch the games and that’s why I’m telling you. They were the LM and RM players. Do you automatically think that the full backs can’t get forward because they’re there and should have a monopoly on width?

Maybe somebody else can explain the dynamics of formations etc for you because I’m done.
 

JamDav1982

Senior Member
I watch the games and that’s why I’m telling you. They were the LM and RM players. Do you automatically think that the full backs can’t get forward because they’re there and should have a monopoly on width?

Maybe somebody else can explain the dynamics of formations etc for you because I’m done.

No you were saying they played as wingers in a flat midfield four when they didnt and as I said the width was taken by the full backs.

Checked the heat maps for both games and can see it clear as day what the the roles of the players were.
 

BBZ8800

Senior Member
The players he is ragging on are outperforming the very players he insists we stick with in almost every attacking metric.

You are posting only attacking skills.

On the other hand, when an opponent has a ball, and see Paulinho/Andre Gomes infront of him, an opponent thinks: Oh no, I will have to dribble/run around him to avoid a tackle or pass the ball sideways to a teammate, to avoid this guy (if you get me, teams need to avoid players like Gomes, Rakitic, Paulinho etc).
On the other hand, when an opponent sees Denis infront of him, an opponent thinks in his head: yaaaaaaaaaay! It's Denis the Ghost infront of him. He is so physically weak in defending and covering an area that I can virtually run through him and he won't take the ball away.

Yes, I am exagerrating, but you get the point.
Or imagine any random arial duel.
If you were our opponent, would you rather see Denis the Ghost jumping with you in a duel or a crazy Shaolin Paulinho jumping 3 meters up in the air and flying over you now?

Those are the things which you can't measure in stats.
You can pull a stat which shows that Denis had 5/10 good defensive tackles etc.
But those numbers aren't telling the whole story.
Again, when an opponent sees Gomes or Paulinho infront of him, an opponent needs to avoid them somehow, pass the ball sideways etc.
While again, with players like Denis, it is a freeride down the flank.

2-3 seasons ago when Rafinha started to play, we were all over the place and without any midfield balance ALL THE TIME whenever he was on a field. It looked as we had a giant hole in our midfield.
He was too far upfront, close to the box, he didn't hold his midfield position well, he wasn't defending his area in midfield and the opponents had a free ride whenever they were on a break.
The same is with Denis.

On the other hand, opponents usually don't have a free ride when they face Paulinho, Rakitic, Gomes or more of them in the same time.

Denis-Messi-Deulo looks awesome on a paper, in FIFA, manager games etc.
It is good and silky attacking wise.
But when we lose the ball, the opponents would have a free ride on way too many areas on a field (especially if we put the weakest lineup defensively, like: Denis-Messi-Deulo, Iniesta-Alena-Busquets).
Imagine how all over the place that team would have been whenever we would lose the ball, or how bad that team would cope against any team with stronger players like Juve, Psg, Chelsea, Bayern.
We would lose 200 loose balls and random arial duels in midfield.

So, a few more dribbles and passes from Deulo/Denis don't mean too much.
It is not that simple.
 
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MessiCam

Guest
No you were saying they played as wingers in a flat midfield four when they didnt and as I said the width was taken by the full backs.

Checked the heat maps for both games and can see it clear as day what the the roles of the players were.
For fuck sakes. Here are there heat maps.
 

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JamDav1982

Senior Member
For fuck sakes. Here are there heat maps.

Exactly so neither played as a winger and those positions also take into account the way the team falls into a 4-4-2 when defending.

Neither of those player played as wingers and the fullbacks took the width when Barca had the ball.

Can see it on the heat maps as could see it watching the game.
 
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MessiCam

Guest
And here is a typical Rakitic heat map when he plants centrally. Now if you have a problem with that. Take your gripe up with Opta and tell them there tools are way off because you didn’t see what the whole world managed to see. That they played as wide men in the midfield.
 

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MessiCam

Guest
Exactly so neither played as a winger and those positions also take into account the way the team falls into a 4-4-2 when defending.

Neither of those player played as wingers and the fullbacks took the width when Barca had the ball.

Can see it on the heat maps as could see it watching the game.
They don’t operate on rails.
 

JamDav1982

Senior Member
And here is a typical Rakitic heat map when he plants centrally. Now if you have a problem with that. Take your gripe up with Opta and tell them there tools are way off because you didn’t see what the whole world managed to see. That they played as wide men in the midfield.

Irrelevant as I have never claimed he played CM and know he has in past.

Neither he or Gomes played as wingers v Bilbao and full backs took the width.
 
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MessiCam

Guest
Irrelevant as I have never claimed he played CM and know he has in past.

Neither he or Gomes played as wingers v Bilbao and full backs took the width.

Lol. Here is Dembélé and Semedo vs Juventus. Dembélé played as RW and Semedo RB. Are you going to argue that Dembélé is not playing as a RW.
 

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MessiCam

Guest
No they didnt operate as wingers in a flat midfield four.

Not even close and your heat maps show that.

Like I said you’re deliberately obtuse. Where did they play in the 4 man midfield?

This man things wide men remain static and only operate on the touch line.
 
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JamDav1982

Senior Member
Like I said you’re deliberately obtuse. Where did they play in the 4 man midfield?

Said already a heap of times how they played.

You claimed they played as wingers in a flat midfielf four and they didnt. Heat maps show it.

Just make up more lies and repeat 'obtuse' and tell me how Messi and Alba thrived in 4-3-3 and suffered in a 4-4-2 as Alba couldnt get forward and Messi plays as a pure striker.

Dear oh dear.
 

JamDav1982

Senior Member
Lol. Here is Dembélé and Semedo vs Juventus. Dembélé played as RW and Semedo RB. Are you going to argue that Dembélé is not playing as a RW.

No Dembele did play as RW and heat maps show defensive movement as well where likes of Raki or Gomes are likely to fall back in that formation.

Are you trying to tell me Raki played same role vs Bilbao as Dembele did vs Juve?

Jesus it gets worse.
 
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MessiCam

Guest
Said already a heap of times how they played.

You claimed they played as wingers in a flat midfielf four and they didnt. Heat maps show it.

Just make up more lies and repeat 'obtuse' and tell me how Messi and Alba thrived in 4-3-3 and suffered in a 4-4-2 as Alba couldnt get forward and Messi plays as a pure striker.

Dear oh dear.
How many goals has Messi scored since the Girona game? How many assists has Alba provided since then?

You are if the opinion that wingers play only on the touch line and that they don’t drift centrally at times or that because there are wingers/Wide midfielders or whatever you wanna call them the full backs don’t need to push forward to provide width.

You don’t have a clue about the basic dynamics of a flat 4-4-2 formation vs a diamond and you think 4-4-2 is interchangeable with a 4-3-3.

Good night.
 

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