21 - Frenkie de Jong

[Andresito]

plus, when rakitic was the same age as de jong, he was playing at schalke and was no where near the level that de jong is currently at

I thought I'd just say this.

Can't really compare players like that.

It might be true, but it doesn't mean prime FDJ will be a lot better than prime Ivan.

The lack of talent was made up with all the playing time at lesser clubs for Rakitic. I mean he played 330 senior games before coming to Barca.

FDJ could stagnate in development if he isn't managed correctly, especially at a club like Barca. And end up a worse player than Rakitic.

Theoretically.

 

[MTL_Barca]

Rakitic never lacked talent, if anything at Schalke he was like one of the talented players that just doesn't make it. At Sevilla he matured a lot but i don't think anyone ever doubted that he is talented. He just couldn't show it consistently and he wasn't considered the hard worker he is now.

BBZ would've hated young Raki for sure but tbh i don't think many people thought of him as a future Barca starter at that time.

De Jong is miles ahead at that age obviously, but i don't think thats too surprising seeing how the career of Rakitic went, it's rather unusual to go from one smaller club to another because you didn't really make it and then become world class in later 20s.

 

[khaled_a_d]

plus, when rakitic was the same age as de jong, he was playing at schalke and was no where near the level that de jong is currently at

Disagree with this, even when he joined Schalke at the age of 19 (couple of years younger than FDJ currently) Raki was clearly a standout player there in much stronger Bundesliga league. I actually wanted Barca to sign him at that time (I was obsessed with signing young players at that time tbf).
19 years old Raki played 29 games out of 34, started 23 of those in Schalke who was a Bundesliga powerhouse back then, scored 3 goals and made 10 assists btw.
Never mind it doesn't matter if Raki was inferior back then, because sometimes signing players based on what they can be is the wrong move as they might need a smaller stage to reach their potential

 

[Raketa10]

First of all people who are saying Rakitic was "nothing special" at FDJ age don't know shit and have never watched Raki before ha came to Barca. Raki was a fantastic talent from the begging of his career. Secondly I am all in for FDJ and I sincerely hope we sign him this summer! If there is one player that has Barca DNA it's De Jong but saying that he is currently on the level of Ivan or above it's ludicrous. I hope that he will excel here together with Arthur and that they will become a great duo for the next decade but some people seriously need to understand that he also needs time to reach the level he undoubtedly can.

Regarding stats for this season we can also mention:

Rakitic - 3 goals 3 asists

De Jong - 2 goals 0 asists

Also bare in mind that Eredivisie is nowhere near the level of La Liga and that UEFA nations league is nowhere near the level of WC.

 

[Sorin]

First of all people who are saying Rakitic was "nothing special" at FDJ age don't know shit and have never watched Raki before ha came to Barca. Raki was a fantastic talent from the begging of his career. Secondly I am all in for FDJ and I sincerely hope we sign him this summer! If there is one player that has Barca DNA it's De Jong but saying that he is currently on the level of Ivan or above it's ludicrous. I hope that he will excel here together with Arthur and that they will become a great duo for the next decade but some people seriously need to understand that he also needs time to reach the level he undoubtedly can.

Regarding stats for this season we can also mention:

Rakitic - 3 goals 3 asists

De Jong - 2 goals 0 asists

Also bare in mind that Eredivisie is nowhere near the level of La Liga and that UEFA nations league is nowhere near the level of WC.

Lampard - about 200 goals

Iniesta - about 40

Please stop posting stats without context and the position on the pitch and role they take. One has played DM the whole year and even CB and the other is a CM with Busi doing the work that Frenkie does. And even then, their role is completely different. No offence but it's completely asinine to compare their stats. The level of last year Ivan maybe, however what De Jong showed against France, Germany, Bayern Munich and in CL overall this year is above Raki's level after the world cup. Bar 2 or 3 games, your boy has been average to poor this season.

The level of the WC has been poor. What WC did you watch ffs?

 

[MessiDinho10]

First of all people who are saying Rakitic was "nothing special" at FDJ age don't know shit and have never watched Raki before ha came to Barca. Raki was a fantastic talent from the begging of his career. Secondly I am all in for FDJ and I sincerely hope we sign him this summer! If there is one player that has Barca DNA it's De Jong but saying that he is currently on the level of Ivan or above it's ludicrous. I hope that he will excel here together with Arthur and that they will become a great duo for the next decade but some people seriously need to understand that he also needs time to reach the level he undoubtedly can.

Regarding stats for this season we can also mention:

Rakitic - 3 goals 3 asists

De Jong - 2 goals 0 asists

Also bare in mind that Eredivisie is nowhere near the level of La Liga and that UEFA nations league is nowhere near the level of WC.

Keep in mind Rakitic played further up the field in that time, mostly as a winger and CAM IIRC.

 

[Bulgroz]

The level of the WC has been poor. What WC did you watch ffs?

I think what he meant was that players don't really give a shit about Nation Cup, while any pro would probably kill for a chance to win the WC. Thus a pretty blatant difference between the 2 competitions. Nation cup is slightly above friendly games, in terms of motivation, agressivity, and overall concentration. It's nowhere near a Euro or a WC.

 

[Sorin]

I think what he meant was that players don't really give a shit about Nation Cup, while any pro would probably kill for a chance to win the WC. Thus a pretty blatant difference between the 2 competitions. Nation cup is slightly above friendly games, in terms of motivation, agressivity, and overall concentration. It's nowhere near a Euro or a WC.

Again, have we watched the same world cup and the same Nations cup? I've seen WC games at the level of Segunda and I've seen Nations matches way, way above those. Both in the quality of the games and determination of the players. Sure the importance doesn't compare but it's exactly for that reason that some matches at the WC ended in some cagey affairs with some awful, awful mistakes sprinkled everywhere. If that's what quality means to you then by all means you're entitled to your opinion and fair enough. Being from a nation that won the WC or played in the final i can understand that you lived the WC on another level. For me, as a neutral, I was bored out of my freaking mind watching some of the games, including your win over Belgium, England against everybody and likewise Spain. Maybe that's just me.

 

[Bulgroz]

Again, have we watched the same world cup and the same Nations cup? I've seen WC games at the level of Segunda and I've seen Nations matches way, way above those. Both in the quality of the games and determination of the players. Sure the importance doesn't compare but it's exactly for that reason that some matches at the WC ended in some cagey affairs with some awful, awful mistakes sprinkled everywhere. If that's what quality means to you then by all means you're entitled to your opinion and fair enough. Being from a nation that won the WC or played in the final i can understand that you lived the WC on another level. For me, as a neutral, I was bored out of my freaking mind watching some of the games, including your win over Belgium, England against everybody and likewise Spain. Maybe that's just me.

I can totally get that people got bored watching France play, but that has nothing to do with the determination and concentration of the players on the pitch. Unless you think that Belgium lost to France because they didn't care about going to the finals. Whereas it was pretty obvious that France didn't care that much about the whole Nation Cup (same could be said about most teams in that competition honestly, though I have to say I've only watched 2 or 3 games apart from the France ones). You would see players "injured" missing games that they would NEVER have skipped if they had been important ones. And coaches playing lineups they wouldn't have dared in a WC quarter final.

Nation cup was in a way more entertaining than the WC, probably because as you said, the pressure on the players can force them to play bad during important games (great players usually shine even brighter under pressure, but they're less common). Thing is, if you want to judge how good of a fit a player would be for Barca, you're better off judging his performances during a WC (or during UCL) than during that half friendly/half qualifier competition that's the Nation cup. It's like saying "X should be a starter this season for sure, because he was so good during the pre-season tournament": it doesn't make much sense. I think that's all Raketa meant.

 

[raskolnikov]

France under French Valverde is like driving a Ferrari across the finish line with 50 mph saying you won the race so who cares it didnt go full speed.

 

[Sorin]

I can totally get that people got bored watching France play, but that has nothing to do with the determination and concentration of the players on the pitch. Unless you think that Belgium lost to France because they didn't care about going to the finals. Whereas it was pretty obvious that France didn't care that much about the whole Nation Cup (same could be said about most teams in that competition honestly, though I have to say I've only watched 2 or 3 games apart from the France ones). You would see players "injured" missing games that they would NEVER have skipped if they had been important ones. And coaches playing lineups they wouldn't have dared in a WC quarter final.

Nation cup was in a way more entertaining than the WC, probably because as you said, the pressure on the players can force them to play bad during important games (great players usually shine even brighter under pressure, but they're less common). Thing is, if you want to judge how good of a fit a player would be for Barca, you're better off judging his performances during a WC (or during UCL) than during that half friendly/half qualifier competition that's the Nation cup. It's like saying "X should be a starter this season for sure, because he was so good during the pre-season tournament": it doesn't make much sense. I think that's all Raketa meant.

Ok fair enough. On the other hand I've seen players delivering great performances in the WC but then the club competition came and they were clearly not the same. You have prime examples in your nt like Pogba. Though the circumstances are different. My point is, evaluating players solely on how they did in a WC is also wrong. Perisic had a fantastic WC and I wouldn't want Barca to touch him with a ten foot pole. Maguire from England is another one. That's how Bayern was duped into buying Renato Sanches for a metric fuckton. There are numerous examples over the years where the level of the player hasn't translated over to club. It's not exactly a bulletproof method of evaluating if a player can play or not for Barcelona or some other elite team. Arthur came from Brazil without any WC or international fame and delivered the goods in his second match. If you're good enough, you're good enough no matter if you're 18 years old or 25 years old. I believe Frenkie de Jong is that guy where at 22 he will be able to deliver good performances from the get go. Maybe I'm proven wrong but until then I stand by my opinion.

Edit: Added some edits Bulgroz. Sorry.

 

[Bulgroz]

Ok fair enough. On the other hand I've seen players delivering great performances in the WC but then the club competition came and they were clearly not the same. You have prime examples in your nt like Pogba. Though the circumstances are different. My point is, evaluating players solely on how they did in a WC is also wrong. Perisic had a fantastic WC and I wouldn't want Barca to touch him with a ten foot pole. Maguire from England is another one. That's how Bayern was duped into buying Renato Sanches for a metric fuckton. There are numerous examples over the years where the level of the player hasn't translated over to club.

Yeah, I agree with that too, but it's more an argument you can have about NT football as a whole, actually. It's pretty obvious that the best NT in the world can't really compete with the best clubs in the world, first of all because a club can just buy any player to fix a weakness (whereas France can't just buy a decent RB, unfortunately), and second of all because the players only practice together every 2-3 months. And since the general level is weaker than the level of top clubs, a player shining for his national team might not look so good when playing a UCL final. Plus, there are some players who just shine brighter when they're playing for their country, just out of sheer motivation. While some others won't really care.
So no, I wouldn't judge a player only on how he performed during a WC/Euro, but I would judge him even less on how he perform during the nation cup.

All that being said, from what I've gathered FDJ has been pretty good so far in UCL, and that should mean something (even if it's "just" group stage).

 

[Sorin]

Yeah, I agree with that too, but it's more an argument you can have about NT football as a whole, actually. It's pretty obvious that the best NT in the world can't really compete with the best clubs in the world, first of all because a club can just buy any player to fix a weakness (whereas France can't just buy a decent RB, unfortunately), and second of all because the players only practice together every 2-3 months. And since the general level is weaker than the level of top clubs, a player shining for his national team might not look so good when playing a UCL final. Plus, there are some players who just shine brighter when they're playing for their country, just out of sheer motivation. While some others won't really care.
So no, I wouldn't judge a player only on how he performed during a WC/Euro, but I would judge him even less on how he perform during the nation cup.

All that being said, from what I've gathered FDJ has been pretty good so far in UCL, and that should mean something (even if it's "just" group stage).

All true. It also depends on the teammates and the manager you have. For example, Frenkie de Jong isn't surrounded by world class teammates all over the pitch like some of the names I've thrown around. It's one thing to play passes with Messi and Busquets or Mbappe and Griezmann and it's another thing to pass to Babel/Wijnaldum or Huntelaar and Lasse Schöne. That's why I'm impressed by Frenkie. Even though your team hasn't been as determined in the Nations Cup as in the WC you still had your starting world class midfield of Pogba, Kante and Matuidi that helped you win the world cup with, whilst De Jong had Wijnaldum and Propper or De Roon and the guy shined. No matter how relaxed you claim your midfield was the level is still miles apart between the two. The only bad performance he had in these matches was against Germany in which he was pretty poor. But one match out of 5-6 games is pretty good for a guy his age. I know this because I've made a conscious decision to watch every game he plays in, whether for Ajax or the Netherlands, just to see if the hype is warranted. Imo, he's legit and if we want to regain control of the midfield we need him or someone like him badly.

 

[Bulgroz]

All true. It also depends on the teammates and the manager you have. For example, Frenkie de Jong isn't surrounded by world class teammates all over the pitch like some of the names I've thrown around. It's one thing to play passes with Messi and Busquets or Mbappe and Griezmann and it's another thing to pass to Babel/Wijnaldum or Huntelaar and Lasse Schöne. That's why I'm impressed by Frenkie. Even though your team hasn't been as determined in the Nations Cup as in the WC you still had your starting world class midfield of Pogba, Kante and Matuidi that helped you win the world cup with, whilst De Jong had Wijnaldum and Propper or De Roon and the guy shined. No matter how relaxed you claim your midfield was the level is still miles apart between the two. The only bad performance he had in these matches was against Germany in which he was pretty poor. But one match out of 5-6 games is pretty good for a guy his age. I know this because I've made a conscious decision to watch every game he plays in, whether for Ajax or the Netherlands, just to see if the hype is warranted. Imo, he's legit and if we want to regain control of the midfield we need him or someone like him badly.

Pogba wasn't there, it was Nzonzi. He's still a pretty good player, but nowhere near what Pogba offered during the WC for example. The rest of your argument still stands though, since the general level of our player was - individually - supposed to be higher than our opponent's.

 

[Sorin]

Pogba wasn't there, it was Nzonzi. He's still a pretty good player, but nowhere near what Pogba offered during the WC for example. The rest of your argument still stands though, since the general level of our player was - individually - supposed to be higher than our opponent's.

I was referring to the first match when you won 2-1. It was man for man your WC winning first team. Although they lost the match, Frenkie was one of the best players on the pitch from my point of view.