Tennis

[serghei]

Have you ever bothered to take a look at the head to head games in that period (all tournaments) and head to head Grand Slam finals? A young pre-injury Nadal was dominating the supposed GOAT that was supposedly in his prime (your own words). The 1 year younger Djokovic as well.

Hence pretty much strengthening my opinion of a pre-injury Nadal (pre-2011) being the GOAT of the top 3 and facing the toughest opponents out there.

This video that I posted a while ago, raises similar points.

Dude, you're not making sense at all.

Federer's prime is 2004-2008. In this period he faced Nadal a grand total of ZERO TIMES at the AO and USO. Nadal wasn't good enough to get to Federer. And he was a highly seeded player, which meant he had to get at least to a semifinal to meet Federer at those events. He was beaten along the way by lesser players.

So, pre 2009 Nadal isn't good enough to even get to Federer on hard courts, but according to you, he was better than Federer on this surface. How does that make sense?

Nadal started to beat Federer at AO and USO, as he entered his prime and Federer declined. Hell, at USO I don't even know if they've ever met. Don't think so. When Federer was beasting it and was in his prime, Nadal was crap at USO. When Nadal started to make the finals, Federer started to be bad at this event, losing to Berdych, Robredo, Millman and others.

[catalinutzR80]

reminder that federer is the truest goat.

[Leo_Messi]

Dude, you're not making sense at all.

Federer's prime is 2004-2008. In this period he faced Nadal a grand total of ZERO TIMES at the AO and USO. Nadal wasn't good enough to get to the final. And he was a highly seeded player, which meant he had to get at least to a semifinal to meet Federer at those events. He was beaten along the way by lesser players.

So, pre 2009 Nadal isn't good enough to even get to Federer, but according to you, he was better than Federer. How does that make sense?

Nadal started to beat Federer at AO and USO, as he entered his prime and Federer declined.

You are the one making no sense. You started taling about Federer (the supposed GOAT in your eyes) being unplayable between 2005-2007, later to change it (conveniently to 2004-2008) while I just showed you that Nadal was DOMINATING Federer in Federer's supposed prime. Head to head AND in terms of Grand Slam finals. Everyone can take a look at the statistics. Not only Federer but Nadal was also dominating the 1 year younger Djokovic, pre-injury.

5 Grand Slam wins against Federer in direct Grand Slam finals (French Open, Wimbledon, Australian Open) between 2005 (when Nadal first appeared on the scene) and 2010.

What exactly made Federer lose it after 2010 or supposedly after 2008 or was it 2007? You need to make up your mind. That is an excuse used only due to Federer no longer winning everything due to Nadal and Djokovic emerging on the scene. As I wrote, pretty convenient to make the cut at that point in time. In January 2010, Federer was 28 years old. He is still playing 10 years later. That should have been part of his prime. No major injuries either, unlike after Nadal hit 25 years of age.

The anti-Nadal diarrhea from the Federer fanboys emerged during that exact era when Federer could no longer collect Grand Slams at will because of Nadal like he could against the scrubs that he was winning against previously.

[serghei]

You are the one making no sense. You started taling about Federer (the supposed GOAT in your eyes) being unplayable between 2005-2007, later to change it (conveniently to 2004-2008) while I just showed you that Nadal was DOMINATING Federer in Federer's supposed prime. Head to head AND in terms of Grand Slam finals. Everyone can take a look at the statistics. Not only Federer but Nadal was also dominating the 1 year younger Djokovic, pre-injury.

5 Grand Slam wins against Federer between 2005 (when Nadal first appeared on the scene) and 2010.

The anti-Nadal diarrhea from the Federer fanboys emerged during that exact era when Federer could no longer collect Grand Slams at will because of Nadal like he could against the scrubs that he was winning against previously.

I said there is no GOAT. But legends who have dominated on their favorite playing conditions.

Dude, the only grand slam finals that they've played during Federer's prime or peak or whatever you want to call it is at Roland Garros. Nadal always was supperior on clay. Ever since 2005 and to present day.

You have Wimbledon 2008, and AO 2009 as the only Grand Slam meetings off clay where they were near their best levels. That's it. Those matches were epic as a result.

[Leo_Messi]

I said there is no GOAT. But legends who have dominated on their favorite playing conditions.

Dude, the only grand slam finals that they've played during Federer's prime or peak or whatever you want to call it is at Roland Garros. Nadal always was supperior on clay. Ever since 2005 and to present day.

So Federer was not in his prime in 2008 when a 22 year old Nadal defeated him in arguably the greatest Grand Slam final in history? Or in 2009 when Nadal defeated him in the Australian Open? Or in 2010 when he defeated him in the US Open? Let us forget the French Open which Nadal has been utterly dominating for the past 15 years. Winning 3 finals in a row (during that period) against the same Federer.

What was the excuse of Federer exactly? Did he suffer from severe or serious injuries before he turned 29? Or did he suddenly lose all stamina and turned into a grandpa once he crossed 26 years of age? Like Nadal who had serious injury problems as a 25 year old.

Or has the prime thing more to do with Federer not competing against the likes of Roddick, Hewitt, Baghdatis, Safin, Philippoussis any longer?

BTW, I talk about a PRE-INJURY Nadal being the GOAT. In other words a Nadal pre-2011. Otherwise I rate Djokovic more highly post-2011 overall. Largely due to Nadal and Federer no longer being in their primes. Now in the last 2-3 years, Nadal is right up there with Djokovic when ready. At least in terms of combined Grand Slam wins although Djokovic has been better overall. But luckily, most people tend to look at their combined careers and take into account injuries, opponents faced during each respective prime, head to head results and lots of other parameters.

[serghei]

So Federer was not in his prime in 2008 when a 22 year old Nadal defeated him in arguably the greatest Grand Slam final in history? Or in 2009 when Nadal defeated him in the Australian Open? Or in 2010 when he defeated him in the US open?

What was the excuse of Federer exactly? Did he suffer from severe or serious injuries before he turned 29? Like Nadal who had serious injury problems as a 25 year old.

Or has the prime thing more to do with Federer not competing against the likes of

Dude, you realise both those games were like 5 set matches right? What's Nadal excuse that a 37 year old Federer beat him at the AO in 2017 and at Wimbledon this year at 38? Or that Djokovic swept the floor with him in 2011 while he was in his prime?

Btw, Federer was dealing with mononucleosis in 2008 since you're using the injury excuses.

[Zidane82]

Nomally the ones who prefer Nadal to Federer should prefer Ronaldo to Messi. Same duel of different attributes and qualities.

When you say genius, talent, you say Roger and Messi.

When you say hunger, work ethic and amazing physical qualities you say Ronaldo and Nadal.

Perfect

[serghei]

But anyway I fully admit Nadal's superiority over Federer in some important areas related to tennis (mentality, never give up attitude, power, endurance). But the claim that viceversa isn't true as well is laughably false.

[Leo_Messi]

Dude, you realise both those games were like 5 set matches right? What's Nadal excuse that a 37 year old player beat him at the AO in 2017? Or that Djokovic wept the floor with him in 2011 while he was in his prime?

You do realize that Nadal has reached 4 Australian Open finals in the last 8 years and that many of his final loses were close affairs as well, including those few finals that he lost against a prime Federer? It works both ways.

Nadal is basically the Ronaldo (real Ronaldo) of tennis. Almost unstoppable pre-injury. I mentioned it earlier, but Nadal has been injured for over 2 years of his career. Knee injuries as well.

As for a young Nadal losing against scrubs in Australian Open, Federer has had his fair share of such loses to say the least.

BTW, Nadal had to withdrew due to injury in Wimbledon 2009. He was ranked as number 1 and the favorite to repeat his 2008 win. In 2010 he won Wimbledon again. So prime Nadal (2005-2010 - 19-24 year old) could have won 3 Wimbledon titles in a row on his least favorite surface against a prime Federer (or at least a Federer very close to his prime and in his best age).

Surprise, surprise, Nadal reached the Wimbledon final in 2007 as well. Losing in 5 sets against a prime Federer as a 21 year old. Surprise, surprise, a 20 year old Nadal reached the Wimbledon final against the same Federer in 2006. Losing in 4 sets.

In other words, Nadal in his prime (PRE-INJURY NADAL that I have argued is the GOAT), reached the Wimbledon final 4 out of 5 times between 2006-2010 and had to withdraw due to injury in 2009, where he was the defending champion and number 1 in the world.

Same pre-Injury Nadal won 5 French Open in that time span (2005-2010).

Won the US Open and Australian Open and thus becoming the youngest of the 3, to win a career grand slam, as well (2009 and 2010).

So yes, pre-injury Nadal is a LEGIT GOAT contender. Anyone that says anything differently has no clue about tennis.

Nadal, as a youngster (prime), main weakness were hard courts. Later in his career he mastered it and now he has 4 US Open titles and countless of finals in the Australian Open. He still has time to win more so his book is not yet finished.

Anyway I only rate a prime pre-injury Nadal higher than a prime Djokovic, because Nadal's rivals were of a greater quality than what a prime Djokovic faced. For instance a prime Djokovic never faced a tennis player as good as the prime Federer that Nadal was competing with in his pre-injury days. A prime Djokovic used to dominate against a Federer past his prime and a Nadal past his prime and constantly injured/unfit.
As for most complete player across all courts, I rate Djokovic the highest. I also rate Nadal's and Djokovic's winner mentality, fighting spirit and athleticism much higher than Federer's. Technically and aesthetically, Federer probably wins it (at least that is the popular opinion) but I heavily dislike the clueless lot who equal Nadal with some robot or the C. Ronaldo comparisons, when Nadal himself is one of the most technically gifted players in history.

[serghei]

Man you're tireless. Pre-injury Nadal is the best of the best. Here, there you have it. You can sleep a peaceful man tonight.

[Leo_Messi]

Speaking about technique. Anyone that has played tennis on even the lowest of levels know how difficult this is.



Beautiful.

Man you're tireless. Pre-injury Nadal is the best of the best. Here, there you have it. You can sleep a peaceful man tonight.

I honestly don't care whether you or anyone else agree or not. It is of no importance. Nor my opinion for that matter.
We were just having an exchange of opinions and I argued why I believe that a pre-injury Nadal has a legitimate claim to be the GOAT all things considered. This is not about "converting" someone or changing their opinions.
That Hardy dude, took that as some kind of outrageous claim when tons of tennis experts, former greats etc. are of a similar opinion. Even Federer alluded to it when he spoke about the hardest opponent that he has faced in his career. Djokovic was nowhere to be found during that era as he was not really an early bloomer like Nadal was, having won just 2 Grand Slams as a 24 year old compared to Nadal's 10. Having his field day when Nadal and Federer were both past their primes. Even Federer had not won as many Grand Slams at such a young age as pre-injury Nadal had and that too in an easier playing field (easier opponents than what Nadal had to face - prime Federer alone is superior to everyone of the "scrubs" that Federer used to dominate against pre-Nadal and pre-Djokovic). Pretty much what this boils down to in my eyes.

[Hardy]

let's see the final lost since 2011 outside of clay:4 at Melbourne, losing to Nole, Wawrinka and Federer, another one in NY losing to Djokovic and let's say 2 at Wimbledon because we all know last year the SF was a real final against Nole. so that's a total of 7 slam finals outside of clay. The supposed injury free unstoppable Nadal had zero final in NY, zero in Melbourne, then 2 at Wimbledon, so it's 7 vs 2. Seasons where he won at least 2 majors (2008-2010-2013-2017-2019), so he has 3 in the second part of his career, his best streak in majors is the current one with 8 or 9 consecutive SF, the seasons where he played at least 3 majors finals are 2010-2011-2017-2019 but according to you Nadal was better before 2011, legit GOAT contender with just 4 finals outside of clay, imagine really believe that.

the only real difference since 2011 is Novak Djokovic, not this dumb narrative of Nadal injuries, Nadal 2011 was even better than 2010, if wasn't for Nole he would have won again 3 slam that year but with even better overall season

hardy dude is not saying that it's outrageous to think Nadal is the GOAT, hardy dude is exposing you because you mentioned only numbers and records that suit your narrative, you failed badly on ATP finals come on, 5th most important tournament in tennis and you said anything about that do you remember that Nole won 4 majors in a row? that's a pretty amazing and unique achievement, far more impressive than winning % but of course you said anything about that, imagine my shock...

Nole peak started lately compared to Nadal and Federer, everyone know that, except leo messi...

[Leo_Messi]

More incoherent nonsense. Prime Nadal won 10 Grand Slam titles and a CAREER Grand Slam before turning 25 years of age. Beating all his main rivals on all surfaces. Being WAY superior in head to head matches against not only Federer but Djokovic as well. Since you have difficulties with understanding English, you would have realized that I wrote that pre-injury Nadal's main weakness were his performances on hard court. Something that he has more than made up for today. So try harder next time. As if a prime Federer was not underperforming on clay and if it was a coincidence that Djokovic first started dominating after Nadal and Federer were past their primes and injury-ridden. Not even going to talk about the competition that Federer faced or lack thereof early in his career when he was collecting Grand Slams left and right until a teenage Nadal appeared on the scene.

How pathetic must one be to deny the above as well as 4 Wimbledon finals and 4 French Open finals (two by far largest Grand Slam tournaments) in the span of 5 years between 2005-2010 against a prime Federer.

Yes, you can live in your own little world where Nadal being out of tennis for a combined total of OVER 2 years, serious knee injuries that most if not many people considered career ending, never happened.

Yes, I did not know that Djokovic was a late bloomer (wonder why he was that, lol?), I just mentioned it out of the blue before anyone else had mentioned it, so I must not have known beforehand. "Hardy" logic in action again.

As for Djokovic, if you understood English, you would have noticed what I wrote not that long ago rather than blabbering nonsense.

This is what I wrote just a few posts ago:

Anyway I only rate a prime pre-injury Nadal higher than a prime Djokovic, because Nadal's rivals were of a greater quality than what a prime Djokovic faced. For instance a prime Djokovic never faced a tennis player as good as the prime Federer that Nadal was competing with in his pre-injury days. A prime Djokovic used to dominate against a Federer past his prime and a Nadal past his prime and constantly injured/unfit.
As for most complete player across all courts, I rate Djokovic the highest. I also rate Nadal's and Djokovic's winner mentality, fighting spirit and athleticism much higher than Federer's. Technically and aesthetically, Federer probably wins it (at least that is the popular opinion) but I heavily dislike the clueless lot who equal Nadal with some robot or the C. Ronaldo comparisons, when Nadal himself is one of the most technically gifted players in history.

I also clearly wrote, not many months ago, that I rate Djokovic as the most likely future GOAT. That however has nothing to do with me and TONS of others, former greats, current tennis players, fans and experts alike, considering a pre-injury Nadal to be the GOAT in the modern era.

Talks about fanaticism but does everything to discredit Nadal in the most pathetic ways. Some people must be really butthurt that Nadal just won his 19th Grand Slam and likely will surpass Federer. Keep crying I say as a healthy Rafa has at least 5 years left in the tank and a few Grand Slams more if he will keep injuries at bay.

[snowy]

No bones 'bout it, Rafa is an absolute beast. Specially in this era of longer baseline rallies and his spin-heavy chase-defense style, and topping that off with crazy schedules and not enough recovery time, it's actually a miracle he doesn't get more sidelined by injuries. In this aspect (freak physique), he and CR are similar but transposing their technical abilities cross-sport, in all impartiality, CR gets nowhere close to the Humbalito Bull.

For me, Roj's tennis is poetry in motion. So fluid it makes water seem like concrete. His effortless style also is much less taxing on his body, which allows him to play at the highest level to this day. Out of this world!

And every now and then, you get distortions in the matrix like the space shaman Dustin B vs Rafa 2015 W round 2 bout.

yaaa maaaaan!


dayyyuum you gotta miss the variety! basically, since ATP lowered the speed limit and homogenized play with their ball rule (bigger, slower, less tightly-wounded type 3 balls for the faster courts and the faster type 1 ball on the slower courts) and tournaments making it even worse by adjusting their surfaces ie. grass comp and cut in Wimbledon = higher bounces, more sand mixed into the paint in US open slowing down the ball ...

they all play and feel way too similar and you see much less serve-volley quick points a la Pistol Pete.

[Messi983]

What kind of childish and moronic logic is that? No offense.
Nadal is as much a madridista as he is a culé. The guy has been watching Barça at the Camp Nou numerous times and praised the team as well as Atlético de Madrid and RCD Mallorca. He is a football fan.

Good story.

Whole world knows he's a madridista and he was seen crying at the Bernabeu when RM won the title years ago. I wouldn't actually mind him being a RM fan (Federer is too IIRC) if his whole family wouldn't be cules and he wouldn't be a black sheep in the family.

Anyway, as I've said I don't actually care about Rafa or men's tennis (I like some women players but still not enough to watch matches dominated by the Williams brothers in last decades) in general, I'm just tired of seeing Rafa's face (which is very punchable BTW ) every day in spanish media (yeah, I know why but still) the same as I was with Neyboy the whole summer.