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Thread: Marco Verratti

  1. #4636
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    Quote Originally Posted by serghei View Post
    You really don't like the short technical type at all do you ?
    It's not only about height.
    It's a mix of being short and being "only" a CM.

    Before Xavi and Iniesta, those type of 433 CM-possession midfielders weren't rated at all.
    In 80s and 90s, teams played 442 or 442 diamond (with one defensive minded guy and the other CAM type of a guy), or 352 with two defensive midfielders and one CAM.

    Try to even name 5 pure CMs prior to Xavi-Iniesta.
    But then, due to Pep's domination, the whole world started to use that type of CMs.

    But imo, lately, football in general is moving away from that type of CMs towards box2box midfielders, Cams, allrounders or at least more versatile CMs who can score or play like wingers.

    Pep is playing with midfielders who are except Rodri and Fernandinho, all midfielders who are either:
    1) Cm + Cam
    2) Cm + winger
    3) Cm + goalscorer

    On the other hand, I see Verratti as a similar profile to Thiago and Arthur.
    Not physical, not scoring, not defensive beasts.
    They are some sort of controllers, possession recyclers.

    For example, all of these 3 were in one moment of time extremely loved by our fans and imo overrated.

    Imo, outside of Barcaworld, that type of midfielders are a dying breed.

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    I think you are being a bit unfair towards Verratti @BBZ8800

    He is great at playing through passes and moving the ball forward unlike Arthur. Also great at winning the ball back. He might be small, but is like a pitbull.


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    Veratti is a great player, should have left PSG a few years ago though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BBZ8800 View Post
    It's not only about height.
    It's a mix of being short and being "only" a CM.

    Before Xavi and Iniesta, those type of 433 CM-possession midfielders weren't rated at all.
    In 80s and 90s, teams played 442 or 442 diamond (with one defensive minded guy and the other CAM type of a guy), or 352 with two defensive midfielders and one CAM.

    Try to even name 5 pure CMs prior to Xavi-Iniesta.
    But then, due to Pep's domination, the whole world started to use that type of CMs.

    But imo, lately, football in general is moving away from that type of CMs towards box2box midfielders, Cams, allrounders or at least more versatile CMs who can score or play like wingers.

    Pep is playing with midfielders who are except Rodri and Fernandinho, all midfielders who are either:
    1) Cm + Cam
    2) Cm + winger
    3) Cm + goalscorer

    On the other hand, I see Verratti as a similar profile to Thiago and Arthur.
    Not physical, not scoring, not defensive beasts.
    They are some sort of controllers, possession recyclers.

    For example, all of these 3 were in one moment of time extremely loved by our fans and imo overrated.

    Imo, outside of Barcaworld, that type of midfielders are a dying breed.
    Do you watch Verratti regularly? Honestly? Because he is always getting stuck in and winning the ball back. Night and day difference to players like Arthur.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DonAK View Post
    I think you are being a bit unfair towards Verratti @BBZ8800

    He is great at playing through passes and moving the ball forward unlike Arthur. Also great at winning the ball back. He might be small, but is like a pitbull.
    He still has a point. Verratti's G+A contribution has always been very low. The last time he scored in Ligue 1 was in 16/17, which is shocking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by te amo barca View Post
    He still has a point. Verratti's G+A contribution has always been very low. The last time he scored in Ligue 1 was in 16/17, which is shocking.
    Fair point I suppose.

    Not sure he's truly developed into a better player since 2015-16ish when he was a beast.


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    Quote Originally Posted by BBZ8800 View Post
    It's not only about height.
    It's a mix of being short and being "only" a CM.

    Before Xavi and Iniesta, those type of 433 CM-possession midfielders weren't rated at all.
    In 80s and 90s, teams played 442 or 442 diamond (with one defensive minded guy and the other CAM type of a guy), or 352 with two defensive midfielders and one CAM.

    Try to even name 5 pure CMs prior to Xavi-Iniesta.
    But then, due to Pep's domination, the whole world started to use that type of CMs.

    But imo, lately, football in general is moving away from that type of CMs towards box2box midfielders, Cams, allrounders or at least more versatile CMs who can score or play like wingers.

    Pep is playing with midfielders who are except Rodri and Fernandinho, all midfielders who are either:
    1) Cm + Cam
    2) Cm + winger
    3) Cm + goalscorer

    On the other hand, I see Verratti as a similar profile to Thiago and Arthur.
    Not physical, not scoring, not defensive beasts.
    They are some sort of controllers, possession recyclers.

    For example, all of these 3 were in one moment of time extremely loved by our fans and imo overrated.

    Imo, outside of Barcaworld, that type of midfielders are a dying breed.
    But 4-3-3 suitable midfielders are not that recent. What you are saying is simply that box-to-box midfielders are the most common type of top midfielder, and it's true. But that doesn't mean the midfielders that play deeper and don't score many goals or aren't monster destroyer types like Essien or Makelele aren't valuable.

    Yea, you're right that Barca fans tend to overrate players based on some stylistic properties (like Arthur and Thiago).

    And football is not moving away from those types of players, they just don't exist anymore, because they are so rare. A player like Xavi who basically runs the show in midfield is seen once every 30-40 years maybe.
    Last edited by serghei; 5th May 2021 at 06:04 PM.

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    If he had come to Barca, when the hoopla was about, the history of many things might be different. We were humiliated against top opposition mostly because we didn't have that kind of role player in our team, while he had just spent his entire peak in backwards league that no one cares about in the most plastic of all plastic teams that predictably amounted to nothing in CL.

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    Quote Originally Posted by serghei View Post
    But 4-3-3 suitable midfielders are not that recent. What you are saying is simply that box-to-box midfielders are the most common type of top midfielder, and it's true. But that doesn't mean the midfielders that play deeper and don't score many goals or aren't monster destroyer types like Essien or Makelele aren't valuable.

    Yea, you're right that Barca fans tend to overrate players based on some stylistic properties (like Arthur and Thiago).

    And football is not moving away from those types of players, they just don't exist anymore, because they are so rare. A player like Xavi who basically runs the show in midfield is seen once every 30-40 years maybe.
    In 90s and early 00s prior to Barca:
    Milan had defensive midfielder Rijkaard and CAMs like Gullit, Boban, Savicevic, Rui Costa.
    Later they moved to Ambrosini, Gattuso, Seedorf plus CAM.
    I loved Totti's & Batistuta's Roma under Capello in early 00s, they played 352 with 2 cdms like Emerson, Tommasi, Assuncao and a CAM Totti/Nakata.
    Juve always had a mix of guys like Davids/Tacchinardi and CAMs like Zidane, Del Piero, Baggio.

    In England Man Utd for a decade played with a 442 Diamond combo of Roy Keane and Scholes.
    Arsenal had Vieira, Petit, Ljungberg.

    Basically, only Barca and Real here and there had some players of that mould like Pep, Redondo or Guti even though they were either pivots or closer to CAMs.

    In early 2000s, Barca started to use more of those pure CMs like Xavi, Gerard Lopez, Deco, Iniesta.
    3 of them were awesome, and with Pep we reached stars.
    And since then we are using that type of players and some other teams also.

    But prior to 2002, there weren't those type of players. Not because they didn't exist like you say, but because they were surplus to that era.
    442 Diamond needed a CAM and a destroyer.
    352 needed two destroyers and one CAM.

    For example, 99% of teams played with 2 strikers back then and with 2 fullbacks and 2 midfield-wingers.
    Nobody played with LW, RW, CF except Barca and Netherlands here and there.

    But since Rijkaard's 433 and Mou's 433 with Chelsea, teams moved to LW and RW, ditched 2 Cfs, moved to 433 and suddenly there was room for Xavi type of players in every team.

    For example, Verratti and Thiago could play in Man Utd today.
    But Man Utd from 90s with 442 wouldn't need him.
    Would you rather play Scholes-Roy Keane or Verratti-possession type of football back then?

    For example, if Ronaldinho would have played in 1995, he wouldn't be a LW in 433 but Cam in 352/442 or one of two forwards for Milan/Inter in 442.

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    Not everyone can play total-football style, it was always a niche thing that had a resurgence since the late 00s thanks to Barca's immense success. How the hell do you expect Italians and English clubs to play that? They have no idea how.

    You're looking at it the wrong way. There was never an option for Italians or English teams to play the total-football of Cruyff, you need someone to bring these methods to them. Only Barca and the Dutch played it more or less consistently. Now Pep is bringing it with him wherever he goes, and Guardiola created some worship following, with new young managers adopting part of his ideas and tweaking them to fit their own interpretation.

    Barca started this Cruyffist path since the 70s. Pep just brought the model back and worked on it even more. You mention Xavi and Deco, but what about the Dream Team in the early 90s?
    Last edited by serghei; 6th May 2021 at 12:00 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by serghei View Post
    but what about the Dream Team in the early 90s?
    In 1992's final, Barca played 352 with 2 wingbacks, 2 forwards and 3 guys in the middle.

    Those 3 guys were:
    Pivot Pep Guardiola
    Laudrup, a player who played as a CAM and an attacker
    Bakero, a former attacker turned into CAM.

    So, instead of Italian 352 with 2 defensive midfielders and one CAM, Cruijff played with 2 CAMs and 1 pivot.

    So, still no room for Xavi, Thiago, Verratti.

    That position/that type of CMs weren't used by anyone prior to Xavi and Barca/Chelsea/433 since 2003.

    You were either a CAM or pivot back then.
    Nobody was "in the middle" between those two.

    But with 433 and an introduction of 433 instead of 2 Cfs, an attacking line had 3 players with 2 wingers (playmakers) and there was no need for CAMs anymore because LW and RW took the burden of scoring and creating.
    In 352, 2 Cfs needed creative and scoring help from a CAM.
    Cm with 2 Cfs was a too sterile combo.

    But in 433 with 3 attackers, you don't need a CAM anymore.

    And thus in 433, CAMs were turned into CMs, who will recycle possession and control the play and pass to 3 attackers for scoring purposes.

    And that's how we got Xavi, Deco, Iniesta, Thiago, Modric, Verratti and Lords Arthur and Seri.
    Last edited by BBZ8800; 6th May 2021 at 01:36 PM.

  12. #4647
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    Quote Originally Posted by BBZ8800 View Post
    In 1992's final, Barca played 352 with 2 wingbacks, 2 forwards and 3 guys in the middle.

    Those 3 guys were:
    Pivot Pep Guardiola
    Laudrup, a player who played as a CAM and an attacker
    Bakero, a former attacker turned into CAM.

    So, instead of Italian 352 with 2 defensive midfielders and one CAM, Cruijff played with 2 CAMs and 1 pivot.

    So, still no room for Xavi, Thiago, Verratti.

    That position/that type of CMs weren't used by anyone prior to Xavi and Barca/Chelsea/433 since 2003.

    You were either a CAM or pivot back then.
    Nobody was "in the middle" between those two.

    But with 433 and an introduction of 433 instead of 2 Cfs, an attacking line had 3 players with 2 wingers (playmakers) and there was no need for CAMs anymore because LW and RW took the burden of scoring and creating.
    In 352, 2 Cfs needed creative and scoring help from a CAM.
    Cm with 2 Cfs was a too sterile combo.

    But in 433 with 3 attackers, you don't need a CAM anymore.

    And thus in 433, CAMs were turned into CMs, who will recycle possession and control the play and pass to 3 attackers for scoring purposes.

    And that's how we got Xavi, Deco, Iniesta, Thiago, Modric, Verratti and Lords Arthur and Seri.
    Please, Xavi is like an upgraded Guardiola. Pep wasn't some physical beast DM like Essien lol. He was a deep-lying playmaker in the sense that Xavi was. Both were running the show at CM basically.

    In the fluid football of Pep, Xavi was often found at DM every time Busi wasn't there in the DM-CM. The most frequent positional exchange was Busi-Xavi and it was a constant in our game, every time Busi looked for space, Xavi covered the DM zone. Both Guardiola and Xavi were CM-CDM-DLP (deep-lying playmaker), except Xavi the superior player in nearly every way.

    Don't know what you think of Xavi, but he was an excellent defender. What, just because he didn't need to tackle and wasn't tall, that's a very simplistic notion of defending. He could've even played as a box to box if he wanted, but he was just too valuable as a CM to run the show in midfield.

    Here, from an interview Xavi gave as a player:

    As a footballer, Guardiola was the pin-up player for the majority of the aspiring young prospects at La Masia. "Like most midfielders at Barcelona, my idol was Pep," Xavi has said. The two went on to become team-mates and are now great friends, but living in the club captain's then significant shadow made life very difficult indeed for a teenage Xavi and the constant comparisons with Guardiola almost forced the young man out of the Catalan club altogether.

    "I had moved up to the first team at 17 or 18 and those comparisons made it a tough time," Xavi on Canal Plus. "I knew there was a person ahead of me [Guardiola], with whom I wouldn't be able to play too much."

    In those early days, Xavi often came on to replace his idol and at times the two featured in the same side. At that point, however, the comparisons were unfavourable: Pep was in his prime, an established international and European Cup winner, the heartbeat and symbol of the Barcelona side. Xavi was a young man with undoubted potential, yet his media moniker - 'the next Guardiola' - only served to hinder his progress. And he almost left.
    Last edited by serghei; 6th May 2021 at 02:13 PM.

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    You found exactly 1 player in Xavi's mould before Xavi...

    Again, that position barely existed before Pep and his son, Xavi.

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