La Liga | Round 3: FC Barcelona - Getafe 2-1

soul24rage said:

Neto---Dest, Araujo, Lenglet, Alba---FDJ, Busi, Bob---Griezmann, Depay, GOAT

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This lineup is good enough to win Getafe,
but not good enough against the Bilbaos, Valencias, Villareals in Spain, and of course the Bayerns, Liverpools, PSGs, Citys in Europe

Until we have a physical md instead of Busi, Two fast and athletic CBs (not only Araujo), a LB that can actually defend,
and then both of Ansu Dembele upfront
I don't see any chance in difficult games.

We will be blown apart just like against Bilbao

Birdy said:

This lineup is good enough to win Getafe,
but not good enough against the Bilbaos, Valencias, Villareals in Spain, and of course the Bayerns, Liverpools, PSGs, Citys in Europe

Until we have a physical md instead of Busi, Two fast and athletic CBs (not only Araujo), a LB that can actually defend,
and then both of Ansu Dembele upfront
I don't see any chance in difficult games.

We will be blown apart just like against Bilbao

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This is a thinking pattern that brings you teams that can float in the middle of the EPL, if that.
"physical md", "two fast and athletic CBs" etc. Go watch the championship and you will get that from most of the teams. Busquets and Pique has won all that could be won. No they weren't more athletic 5 or 10 years ago.

Bobo32 said:

This is a thinking pattern that brings you teams that can float in the middle of the EPL, if that.
"physical md", "two fast and athletic CBs" etc. Go watch the championship and you will get that from most of the teams. Busquets and Pique has won all that could be won. No they weren't more athletic 5 or 10 years ago.

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Most if not all elite CBs are very good physically. To be a top level CB you need to be great physically and great technically/mentally. Van Djik, Dias, Maguire, Stones, Varane? All strong 6ft+ cbs, as much as we will try to deny it physicality is necessary at CB and you can count on your one hand the amount of weak CBs that are world-class.

Bobo32 said:

This is a thinking pattern that brings you teams that can float in the middle of the EPL, if that.
"physical md", "two fast and athletic CBs" etc. Go watch the championship and you will get that from most of the teams. Busquets and Pique has won all that could be won. No they weren't more athletic 5 or 10 years ago.

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Both were more athletic than they are today, they have obviously declined.
Yes they were never the 'athletic' type if that's what you mean

But football has changed dramatically the last 10 years. That's what you cannot see.

Watch again the Bilbao game. That's what you get with your ideas, and Xavi ideas, applied in modern football.
Busquets was a passenger in that game. He didn't touch the ball. The whole game flowed past him. Unable to exert the slightest influence in attack, and a liability in defense.
That's what happens when you play football at x intensity and your opponent plays at 2x intensity.

On the contrary, look how De Jong saved the day. He was able to constantly run back and forth, broke lines by carrying the ball, was superb in covering ground in defensive transitions.
If a player doesn't have some of that package, modern football just erases him. He is insignificant

ajnotkeith said:

Most if not all elite CBs are very good physically. To be a top level CB you need to be great physically and great technically/mentally. Van Djik, Dias, Maguire, Stones, Varane? All strong 6ft+ cbs, as much as we will try to deny it physicality is necessary at CB and you can count on your one hand the amount of weak CBs that are world-class.

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I would n't put Stones in the same bracket with the rest.

But, look at Van Dijk and Matip who form a CB pairing together at Liverpool.
Apart from the fact that both are WC with the ball on their feet and building up,
they are BOTH top of the top in the air (to the point they don't miss a single header or air challenge the entire game), '
and BOTH super fast and can cover ground quickly in defensive transitions.

If you don't have that package, you are destined to get exposed on fast defensive transitions with your CBs unable to cope
like Pique
like Garcia
like Lenglet
like Umtiti

Was prime Pique physically good enough? Would he work in today's football in your opinion?
(just to understand where you draw the line)

Last game was poor because Barcelona found no consistent path through the high press, and lacked consistency and threat when they did manage.
Busquets is the best ever at finding the space and angles in buildup, Pique (and Garcia) are great at that too. Pedri touched the ball 43 times, Griezmann played for half an hour longer and touched it 47 times despite getting extremely deep.
Some of the "brilliant minds" of this forum were very quick to blame Busquets last game, I am sooner to point the finger at someone like Pedri, who consistently has disappeared in games like these. If there is a path, Busquets will see it, but with these players it's very inconsistent. Their decisions are taken on the spot, and Koeman is very late to react, and seems to have little clue about what is happening.

With Frenkie, Pedri, Depay, Griezmann and Braithwaite, you have five players that are pretty good physically and technically, but who needs to be guided well, they all seem to play without instruction almost, and can't connect well.
Especially Dest, but also Alba to an extent, are too poor and inconsistent with the ball for being the main path in buildup. This is what happens when you push your DM between the CBs, the wing backs get more of the ball as the angles (and depth) to play through midfield disappear. Sometimes the dropping attackers get the ball, but they all do too little with it in Barcelona.

It is a shame that after Valverde left we didn't get to see Busquets, Messi, Puig, Alba, Pique, Garcia, and some of the other players, together again under a competent and confident coach that could use them well. Of course a slow player is terrible in a game of Hawaiian football, that's why you play to control the game. Instead a lot of people here still want to get rid of the few players that potentially are of World class. Well they will disappear in a few years, it's a shame they weren't used right for the last half a decade or more.

mc_lovin said:

Was prime Pique physically good enough? Would he work in today's football in your opinion?
(just to understand where you draw the line)

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He wasn't outstanding physically but he was tall and had underrated strength/agility which is fine with the great skill that he had at the time. But when people are saying it doesn't matter Garcia is 5'10 and rake thin that's stupid. Pique with his height and strength could at least mark bigger strikers.

Also you should not pair 2 slow cbs with each other and need one more mobile who can cover on counters... Garcia Pique at the moment is not a smart pairing

ajnotkeith said:

He wasn't outstanding physically but he was tall and had underrated strength/agility which is fine with the great skill that he had at the time. But when people are saying it doesn't matter Garcia is 5'10 and rake thin that's stupid. Pique with his height and strength could at least mark bigger strikers.

Also you should not pair 2 slow cbs with each other and need one more mobile who can cover on counters... Garcia Pique at the moment is not a smart pairing

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Neither Pique or Garcia are good if you make yourself open to counters, and/or give away too much of the possession, I agree. Busquets isn't good then either, and neither is Alba, Pedri, Frenkie or most of the other players.
My point in a nutshell is that Barcelona shouldn't allow that kind of game.
The other option is to get rid of most of these proven good players, and build around the pretty bad players they have to try and play the same way as other teams, but with less money and less quality for that kind of style to begin with. It's as tough as it was for Liverpool to try and compete with Barcelona under Brendan Rodgers...

Bobo32 said:

Neither Pique or Garcia are good if you make yourself open to counters, and/or give away too much of the possession, I agree. Busquets isn't good then either, and neither is Alba, Pedri, Frenkie or most of the other players.
My point in a nutshell is that Barcelona shouldn't allow that kind of game.
The other option is to get rid of most of these proven good players, and build around the pretty bad players they have to try and play the same way as other teams, but with less money and less quality for that kind of style to begin with. It's as tough as it was for Liverpool to try and compete with Barcelona under Brendan Rodgers...

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It's easier to carry slow players in midfield than CB and there are plenty of world-class midfielders with poor physicality. But it isn't the same for CBs as the 1 on 1 nature of it and the physical aspects of marking strikers, tracking runs etc means it requires this a lot more than other positions. Also remember we are not the team we used to be and it is easier and easier to break through our midfield and target our CBs. I am telling you we won't finish top4 if our pairing for the season is Pique-Garcia, we will get cooked by physical teams.

Many of our 'proven good players' are aging and declining, with big losses such as Messi, Neymar, Suarez etc over the past few years. We have lost so many of our defining players that we can't play like we used to any more. It's not possible. We need to make a different system, our 'Barca DNA' players who are suited to this low-tempo game will be exposed again and again when teams aren't afraid to press us high anymore because our only threat is Depay.

ajnotkeith said:

It's easier to carry slow players in midfield than CB and there are plenty of world-class midfielders with poor physicality. But it isn't the same for CBs as the 1 on 1 nature of it and the physical aspects of marking strikers, tracking runs etc means it requires this a lot more than other positions. Also remember we are not the team we used to be and it is easier and easier to break through our midfield and target our CBs. I am telling you we won't finish top4 if our pairing for the season is Pique-Garcia, we will get cooked by physical teams.

Many of our 'proven good players' are aging and declining, with big losses such as Messi, Neymar, Suarez etc over the past few years. We have lost so many of our defining players that we can't play like we used to any more. It's not possible. We need to make a different system, our 'Barca DNA' players who are suited to this low-tempo game will be exposed again and again when teams aren't afraid to press us high anymore because our only threat is Depay.

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That's a shit take. Fingers crossed for Araujo though.

ajnotkeith said:

It's easier to carry slow players in midfield than CB and there are plenty of world-class midfielders with poor physicality. But it isn't the same for CBs as the 1 on 1 nature of it and the physical aspects of marking strikers, tracking runs etc means it requires this a lot more than other positions. Also remember we are not the team we used to be and it is easier and easier to break through our midfield and target our CBs. I am telling you we won't finish top4 if our pairing for the season is Pique-Garcia, we will get cooked by physical teams.

Many of our 'proven good players' are aging and declining, with big losses such as Messi, Neymar, Suarez etc over the past few years. We have lost so many of our defining players that we can't play like we used to any more. It's not possible. We need to make a different system, our 'Barca DNA' players who are suited to this low-tempo game will be exposed again and again when teams aren't afraid to press us high anymore because our only threat is Depay.

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Messi, Neymar and Suarez leaving means there is less reason to try and trade chances with the opponents in a high variance kind of game, and more reason and even more opportunity to play a control kind of game.

Depay will look better individually since Messi left, but he will help cement the team in a liga contender position if the coach let him play his game - as Cruyff would say "a good player for a bad team but a bad player for a good team". Last game for example (where he was praised) he had a 69% pass percentage. This does not go hand in hand with Busquets, Pique and Garcia, you and others are correct. I say Busquets, Pique and Garcia are better and more important than Depay, and that the style of the team should be suited for them and others rather than for Depay and Dembele.

Griezmann cannot give the team anything in any kind of style, and it is miserable that Koeman puts so much trust in him.

Bobo32 said:

Messi, Neymar and Suarez leaving means there is less reason to try and trade chances with the opponents in a high variance kind of game, and more reason and even more opportunity to play a control kind of game.

Depay will look better individually since Messi left, but he will help cement the team in a liga contender position if the coach let him play his game - as Cruyff would say "a good player for a bad team but a bad player for a good team". Last game for example (where he was praised) he had a 69% pass percentage. This does not go hand in hand with Busquets, Pique and Garcia, you and others are correct. I say Busquets, Pique and Garcia are better and more important than Depay, and that the style of the team should be suited for them and others rather than for Depay and Dembele.

Griezmann cannot give the team anything in any kind of style, and it is miserable that Koeman puts so much trust in him.

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You cannot 'control' the game if the other team is not scared of you and not scared to press high up the field. We don't have a threat that makes teams afraid of us if we break their press. Messi was that, With a trident of Braith-Depay-Griez nobody really cares. If Ansu comes back in top form then it'll help

mc_lovin said:

That's a shit take. Fingers crossed for Araujo though.

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We'll see. I can tell you for sure we will not challenge seriously for LaLiga ever with that Cb pairing

ajnotkeith said:

You cannot 'control' the game if the other team is not scared of you and not scared to press high up the field. We don't have a threat that makes teams afraid of us if we break their press. Messi was that, With a trident of Braith-Depay-Griez nobody really cares. If Ansu comes back in top form then it'll help

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Then it's a question of clinically punishing the opponent for high pressing. Konrad could've been a great option, but any player can be lethal with a lot of space that could be given if they were just playing the right way and didn't prematurely try with too high-variance decisions.
As they play now, Griezmann is a big problem, he gets too deep and kills space while making too many mistakes and at the most just offering a badly timed backwards pass. Depay is very high-variance and Braithwaite is a bit out of his depth... de Jong and Pedri are unreliable positionally, too free flowing and a bit sloppy.

I am very convinced that the problem lies mainly in the top 5 rather than the back 5, while the back 5 will no doubt be the easier scapegoats. Netos feet should not be overseen either though...