How to approach the rebuild

Yeah big no to Draxler.

Depay and Gaya should be our targets first and foremost. Then we can see about the rest.

Maybe Camavinga or Kessie who have expiring contracts in 2022 are of interest, or Insigne if he ever want to leave Napoli and sign like a 3 year contract with a new club.

Messi983 said:

Is having "more experience and being in his prime years" enough to take a player who will probably get you better immediate results (there is no guarantee for that though as we've seen with some other "proven" players we've bought) but will very likely (but not surely) turn out to be an inferior player longterm (which is what should be considered when rebuilding)? Or do we take a risk with another younger player and add him to the mix of youngsters already at the club? Soumare has played around 80 games in Ligue 1 so he has more top level experience than Ilaix, Puig, Nico and Pedri but he's probably still a few years away from being ready as a starter for a top team (unless we push him which you dislike).

The only one I'd push out is Busi. For a simple reason I don't want to see him as a starter anymore and I think the only way he's not a starter is if he's not here. It won't happen though so I'm counting on him being here next season and still limiting us on the pitch even if we'll make some improvements in other parts of the team.

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You are getting way too much into specific and names here and not in the main argument IMO. I have to admit I don't watch football in other leagues so much to compare the names but I will be specifics about "how" as an approach.

There are few arguments here:
1-Going all in about La Masia: IMO it is a disaster waiting to happen, it is bad for both long and short term. I think there is a reason most winning teams have median age south of 25, very rare for young teams to be capable of winning anything.
More important, most of those young players have grown within a need of veteran presence. Players who are older and more experienced with them. Those 2 qualities (age and experience) are important, even if the young player is a strong character or even have 5 years of experience due to playing since very young age.

Even with B teams, which are essentially a youth team, it is important to get few players for them 23+. In first team you need some other level of veterans and not 23/24 years old players.

And right now we just have too many, who are both inexperience and still very young and raw. Pedri/Araujo/Mingueza/Illaix/Puig were all playing in lower division football last year (except few games here and there) Dest has played only 1 season in Ajax team before joining us, Fati essentially playing 1 year of professional football.
The oldest of those folks is Arajuo at 22 years of age.
We will also add Emerson & Eric Garcia next year.

And we have the likes of Nico/Balde and maybe even Ramos Mingo waiting for their chance.

Nah, that won't work, even for rebuilding.

2-Signing players who are a bit older rather than other young players, and financial implications:
First, we are going to pay to sign players in the market, if we agree that we just can't survive with La Masia, then we agree that we will have to pay to get help from outside,
How we are going to get that money, and how much is another argument. Could be new debt or selling club assets, could be just limited budget, or a budget based on selling players. But there will be new signings coming to the club.

Older players usually cost less, due to potential, again I think we can agree with that.
So, with limited budget, and many youngsters already in the team (and maybe one or two young additions, I am not ruling them out completely ) It is worth it to use those resources to best improve current squad, and the necessary environment for their development (again, having proper older players to help them)
You argue that Soumare for example can reach a higher level than Jordan, but OTOH I see players like Rakitic or Modric signing at same age, while players like Cesc or Arthur who were really young and were failures.
Is Soumare an elite talent, a guy you get believing he will be top 5 in his position for half decade at least? If that is the case then he is worth the extra money if we have it, if he doesn't then we are beggars and can't choose to pay extra fee, and we have a bigger need for veterans.



I would also add since you don't like our own veterans, and want them to leave, I wonder what is the alternative? get full youth?

khaled_a_d said:

You are getting way too much into specific and names here and not in the main argument IMO. I have to admit I don't watch football in other leagues so much to compare the names but I will be specifics about "how" as an approach.

There are few arguments here:
1-Going all in about La Masia: IMO it is a disaster waiting to happen, it is bad for both long and short term. I think there is a reason most winning teams have median age south of 25, very rare for young teams to be capable of winning anything.
More important, most of those young players have grown within a need of veteran presence. Players who are older and more experienced with them. Those 2 qualities (age and experience) are important, even if the young player is a strong character or even have 5 years of experience due to playing since very young age.

Even with B teams, which are essentially a youth team, it is important to get few players for them 23+. In first team you need some other level of veterans and not 23/24 years old players.

And right now we just have too many, who are both inexperience and still very young and raw. Pedri/Araujo/Mingueza/Illaix/Puig were all playing in lower division football last year (except few games here and there) Dest has played only 1 season in Ajax team before joining us, Fati essentially playing 1 year of professional football.
The oldest of those folks is Arajuo at 22 years of age.
We will also add Emerson & Eric Garcia next year.

And we have the likes of Nico/Balde and maybe even Ramos Mingo waiting for their chance.

Nah, that won't work, even for rebuilding.

2-Signing players who are a bit older rather than other young players, and financial implications:
First, we are going to pay to sign players in the market, if we agree that we just can't survive with La Masia, then we agree that we will have to pay to get help from outside,
How we are going to get that money, and how much is another argument. Could be new debt or selling club assets, could be just limited budget, or a budget based on selling players. But there will be new signings coming to the club.

Older players usually cost less, due to potential, again I think we can agree with that.
So, with limited budget, and many youngsters already in the team (and maybe one or two young additions, I am not ruling them out completely ) It is worth it to use those resources to best improve current squad, and the necessary environment for their development (again, having proper older players to help them)
You argue that Soumare for example can reach a higher level than Jordan, but OTOH I see players like Rakitic or Modric signing at same age, while players like Cesc or Arthur who were really young and were failures.
Is Soumare an elite talent, a guy you get believing he will be top 5 in his position for half decade at least? If that is the case then he is worth the extra money if we have it, if he doesn't then we are beggars and can't choose to pay extra fee, and we have a bigger need for veterans.


I would also add since you don't like our own veterans, and want them to leave, I wonder what is the alternative? get full youth?

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I don't want to go full La Masia route. Would still like for us to search for and bring players like Pedri or cooperate with other clubs like we did with Betis in the Emerson deal. This could be useful in our current financial situation. Bring a young unproven player to Europe and let him get experience at a smaller team before seeing if he's ready for our first team. This is a longer term approach which probably won't help us immediately over the next 2-3 years when most rebuild should (hopefully) be done but should still help us to bring more cheap talent to the club longterm.

As for immediate needs I've said I'm ok bringing players like Depay or Wijnaldum on a free (Kun is too old for my liking but if bought as a backup to a better striker which we'd also bring - unlikely - then I'd also accept him) and if we can afford then spend some money to get players like Gaya. All of them would add quality to the team and also bring experience and hopefully some more leadership which our current veterans don't provide imo (but you probably disagree with that which is fine) and paired with their physical decline that's why I'd prefer to move on from them. There are probably some other players in midtable La Liga teams with affordable release clauses that we could consider but I've not really looked at that.

I don't know if Soumare can become a top 5 player in his position but I think it's fair to think a younger player has higher potential than someone more proven. I could see Jordan going to a bigger team (there was some interest from Arsenal - though we could also argue if Arsenal is really a bigger club than Sevilla right now and if going there would be the right move for him) but don't know if he can fully establish himself there. But you're right, he could also turn into Raki or Modrić and make impact at a bigger team so if he'd be interesting to our coaches/sporting department we should still consider a player like him.

That's why I've said the decision between high ceilling/potentially lower floor players (where you "(over)pay" for future promise more than for actual value) and lower ceiling/higher floor (basically you get what you've paid for with marginal room for improvement but sometimes you can also get "lucky") is not always as straightforward as most people think. You can hit or miss in both approaches. We've done that many times and other clubs as well. What we'll have to do in our situation is thought very well about whatever money we'll potentially decide to invest into someone before pulling a trigger and close the deal. We can't afford more "bad" transfers whether that's for another younger talent or for a more proven player.


As I've said before I'd only offload Busi (though I'm affraid Pique will also be a starter as long as he's here so I'd try to push him out as well). FDJ can take over his role with Roberto as a backup (Frenkie is a workhorse so he wouldn't play much). If Koeman stays bring Wijnaldum to ease pressure on Ilaix. And Pjanić can be used to give rest to Pedri with Puig going on loan. But as long as Busi is not a starter I'm more or less fine keeping status quo in midfield for another season. CB and a striker should be a priority.

We should also bring competition for Alba. Gaya is the most obvious choice. Let Balde develop in Barca B for another season but he can train with the first team and maybe play in Copa.

Big/strong/fast fuckers in defence, pacey fuckers in front line, players that can run in midfield.

Not rocket science what Barca is missing compared to other top sides.

If Laporta doesnt start process of binning Pique and Busquets for next season he is just another lacky in the boardroom scared of the dressing room.

JamDav1982 said:

Big/strong/fast fuckers in defence, pacey fuckers in front line, players that can run in midfield.

Not rocket science what Barca is missing compared to other top sides.

If Laporta doesnt start process of binning Pique and Busquets for next season he is just another lacky in the boardroom scared of the dressing room.

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Thank you. It doesn't seem clear to Barca management. We always go for the snails.

Get rid of the bums. And the veterans. ALL of them except Messi if he wants to stay. There is no other way. Pique, Busquets, Roberto, Alba, Umtiti etc. They must go. All of them.

Ideal signings for a skint Barca, Eric Garcia I assume is done:

- Memphis Depay on free transfer on relatively low wages

- Aguero on a 1 + 1 year deal on relatively low wages and signing bonus

- Gaya with his contract running out

- Emerson signed back for RB competition

- A direct and quick winger if Dembele is sold and Trincao is loaned out

And look into deals for Aouar or/and Camavinga.

Big summer is probably going to be in 2022 where they should go all-in for a Haaland and de Ligt or a comparable CB.

Sell:

Coutinho, Sergi Roberto, Umtiti, Alena, Neto, Firpo, Pjanic, Braithwaite and other fodder.

Start moving on from both Pique and Busquets and have Laporta and Alemany tell them their roles will be reduced going forward.

DonAK said:

Ideal signings for a skint Barca, Eric Garcia I assume is done:

- Memphis Depay on free transfer on relatively low wages

- Aguero on a 1 + 1 year deal on relatively low wages and signing bonus

- Gaya with his contract running out

- Emerson signed back for RB competition

- A direct and quick winger if Dembele is sold and Trincao is loaned out

And look into deals for Aouar or/and Camavinga.

Big summer is probably going to be in 2022 where they should go all-in for a Haaland and de Ligt or a comparable CB.

Sell:

Coutinho, Sergi Roberto, Umtiti, Alena, Neto, Firpo, Pjanic, Braithwaite and other fodder.

Start moving on from both Pique and Busquets and have Laporta and Alemany tell them their roles will be reduced going forward.

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Very good plan. I hope we do something like this. 2022 Barca is hopefully back on track to top.

Would ideally sign a GK to challenge ter Stegen, but with Barca's precarious financial situation there's not much you can do, unless the club want to gamble on bringing Onana back who is currently serving a doping violation suspension. He'll probably be sold this summer as his contract is running out next summer.

DonAK said:

Ideal signings for a skint Barca, Eric Garcia I assume is done:

- Memphis Depay on free transfer on relatively low wages

- Aguero on a 1 + 1 year deal on relatively low wages and signing bonus

- Gaya with his contract running out

- Emerson signed back for RB competition

- A direct and quick winger if Dembele is sold and Trincao is loaned out

And look into deals for Aouar or/and Camavinga.

Big summer is probably going to be in 2022 where they should go all-in for a Haaland and de Ligt or a comparable CB.

Sell:

Coutinho, Sergi Roberto, Umtiti, Alena, Neto, Firpo, Pjanic, Braithwaite and other fodder.

Start moving on from both Pique and Busquets and have Laporta and Alemany tell them their roles will be reduced going forward.

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I would honestly prefer if we told Pique to move out.
I like the guy, and he is liked by his teammates and very smart of the pitch, appreciate the fact that he was putting his long term health at risk for the club.
But his time is over, Lenglet is 26 and he is now the experienced CB (as much as I hate to say) and I just don't think he has the legs to play such critical position.
Couple of months ago I would have preferred to move Busquets out, but he is more difficult to replace and right now the better player.
One of those has to move, this has to feel like a rebuild, that a cycle is on the end of it and we are moving on.

khaled_a_d said:

I would honestly prefer if we told Pique to move out.
I like the guy, and he is liked by his teammates and very smart of the pitch, appreciate the fact that he was putting his long term health at risk for the club.
But his time is over, Lenglet is 26 and he is now the experienced CB (as much as I hate to say) and I just don't think he has the legs to play such critical position.
Couple of months ago I would have preferred to move Busquets out, but he is more difficult to replace and right now the better player.
One of those has to move, this has to feel like a rebuild, that a cycle is on the end of it and we are moving on.

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I would tell Pique to move on and pursue his business ventures, take a break and offer him a seat on the table in the board room in the future if I was Laporta.

Don't know if it'll happen though.

DonAK said:

I would tell Pique to move on and pursue his business ventures, take a break and offer him a table in the board room in the future if I was Laporta.

Don't know if it'll happen though.

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That's what we should do. I expect Pique to play at least next season.

You guys think Laporta has 1) the balls, 2) the correct judgment to tell Pique and Busi to move out?

Judging from the piece of news we hear the last weeks, including the dinner Laporta had with Messi Alba and Pique, I think it's rather the opposite.
Not only he is planning together with them, but he does not consider that Pique's time as a top CB is up

Birdy said:

You guys think Laporta has 1) the balls, 2) the correct judgment to tell Pique and Busi to move out?

Judging from the piece of news we hear the last weeks, including the dinner Laporta had with Messi Alba and Pique, I think it's rather the opposite.
Not only he is planning together with them, but he does not consider that Pique's time as a top CB is up

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Yes and yes.

You should stop reading too much into media reports, especially ones that aren't confirmed by multiple outlets, and going on a frenzy about it and making up your own conclusions from the worst scenarios in your head.

We'll see what happens.