Erling Braut Haaland
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BBZ8800
Senior Member
Barca is winning due to Messi.
We will see how will copy of Pep's style work for us once when Messi leaves.
About Pep winning.
Had the best Barca ever and Messi.
Ran away when things stopped working.
Came to a CL winner Bayern and degraded them.
Ran away after 3 years.
Came to awesome and filthy rich City.
Won some EPL titles, then he got figure out and since he plays at 120%, his team can't follow it physically and mentally after 3-4 years.
He will ran away now.
His next job will probably be Juve who won like 10 titles in a row or Psg.
He will come to already awesome clubs, invest 500 millions, win 2-3 titles, lose in a CL to 6th placed French team and move to a next team.
Sorry, I am not too impressed by his career after Messi.
Especially a CL career.
And especially his tactical stuborness.
KingLeo10
Senior Member
The best Barca ever who had to play CL qualifiers just to make in CL groups, in the season Pep won everything.
Guardiola has the biggest credit in creating the best team of all time.
Not right now, IMO. He hasn't won a CL without Messi, Xavi, Iniesta while the other three have without him. And actually beat him H2H.
Pep has had some really strong teams (that Bayern 13-16 was really strong and City in 17-18) but they haven't gotten it done in the CL. I personally consider Messi, Xavi, Pep the joint 3 chief architects and then Iniesta and Alves after that.
BBZ8800
Senior Member
Wanted Adebayor and Ibra and then moved to Villa, Bojan, Cesc and Alexis as Fcs.
At Bayern had Mandzukic, moved to shorter and more playmaking Lewa eventually.
At City, prefers shorter and more playmaking Jesus and Aguero than true no9s from 90s.
So, yeah, for me Pep still hates tall no9 and his dream eleven is 11 carbon copies of Iniesta/David Silva on all 6 midfield/attacking positions.
About City having the highest amount of crosses, they probably have the highest amount of everything since they are dominating and shooting a lot.
Goals from outside of a box, if they are scoring 100+ goals per season, of course that they will have more goals than teams with 3 shots per match.
My point:
Barca was versatile under Rijkaard.
Possession, counters, longballs, crosses, headers, corners, long range shots, tall players, short players, technical players, combative players.
When Pep came, that versatility turned into=one dimensional perfection which lasted for 3 years and then stopped working.
So, yes, during Pep's prime, his onedimensional style with 11 carbon copies of technical choir boys worked good, largely due to prime, young, fast, hungry and motivated Messi.
Later it stopped working even though we still have Messi.
And it surely won't work after Messi.
This is why I say that Pep's 3 years of perfection will now bring us 20-30 years of mysery when we will try (and fail) to repeat his style till death.
With excuses: but we are Barca.
But that style brought us the biggest success.
Yes. For 3 years.
We are actually underachieving in the last 9 years.
Imagine having Messi for 9 years and winning only 1 Cl.
And we also had Busi for 9 years.
Iniesta for 7.
And Xavi for 4.
So, for me, instead of chasing Pep's style from 2008-2011, we should revert back to the past to a more versatile style.
I know, prime Pep's style was better than prime Rijkaard's style.
But we are not in the prime anymore.
And when you don't have Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, then it is (imo) way easier to be successfull with a more allrounder-versatile style than with a bad copy of Pep's style.
In that sense I am saying that in general Barca:
Lowered their height in Pep vs Rijkaard
Lowered their physique in general
Improved technique and possession
Lowered aerial strength in attack and defense
Lowered the amount of risky passes
Lowered the amount of long balls from deep
Lowered the amount of crosses and headers
Lowered the amount of true corner-crosses into a box
Lowered the amount of risky long range drives and implemented safer shots from perfect positions
When you sum it all, this is why I hate Lautaro.
He is a perfect example of 20 years of mysery and trying to chasing shadows of Pep's perfect team.
Haaland would be a total opposite to Pep's football.
And our board and a lot of fans are not ready yet to turn the page.
My estimation is that we will be ready around 2030 or 2040.
Kisses and hugs, cheers.
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Sailor Mars
Well-known member
What reasons do you give for Rijkaard's failures at Barca?
I mean he only did win 2 league titles in 04-05 and 05-06 plus a CL title. His first season was a rebuild so I'll excuse that. He lost the league in both his last 2 seasons including a dismal 3rd place finish in 07-08.
I mean he only did win 2 league titles in 04-05 and 05-06 plus a CL title. His first season was a rebuild so I'll excuse that. He lost the league in both his last 2 seasons including a dismal 3rd place finish in 07-08.
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vuji_31
Senior Member
This is what I write, but I don't have will and motivation for so long post like BBZ.
Our team is biuld just with players which are good at passing and ball control.
There is no speed,counters,crosses etc...
Bring some destroyers in midfield like Kante or Partey. Soyuncu or Upamecano at CB. Sane , Haaland , Mane...
But our transfer targets are :
1. Pjanic 30 years old washed up player which is definition of tiki taka player which means slow,bad workrate and great sideway passing machine
2. Lautaro who is half season wonder, and of course Messi's partner in attack of Argentina. Not fast,not strong, not proven but 100 mil
3. On CB position nobody is mentioned but it will be some mediocre cb from sevilla or villareal which have decent passing
Our team is biuld just with players which are good at passing and ball control.
There is no speed,counters,crosses etc...
Bring some destroyers in midfield like Kante or Partey. Soyuncu or Upamecano at CB. Sane , Haaland , Mane...
But our transfer targets are :
1. Pjanic 30 years old washed up player which is definition of tiki taka player which means slow,bad workrate and great sideway passing machine
2. Lautaro who is half season wonder, and of course Messi's partner in attack of Argentina. Not fast,not strong, not proven but 100 mil
3. On CB position nobody is mentioned but it will be some mediocre cb from sevilla or villareal which have decent passing
Those players you mention are just what this team need both profile wise but also quality wise. Most of them are available even. Our transfer target are completely in the wrong direction, I simply dont know what the guys at the sporting department are doing. I'm just hoping the Lautaro rumour is a bluff.
serghei
Senior Member
I'm not talking about the titles alone. I'm talking about the team he created, which transcended only titles.
Yea, Messi, Xavi, Alves, could have won CLs and La Ligas without Guardiola as well, no doubt. But the 2009-11 Barcelona team, which was a football machine, was Pep's creation. He was the architect. Even if he worked with the best materials.
Are they?
Kante - expensive as fuck (and 29).
Partey - maybe, wouldnt bet my house on it though... Atletico would be pissed.
Soyuncu - expensive as fuck.
Upamecano - surely available, qualitywise I am not sure (and I like him).
Sane - maybe if we tried a year ago (when Bayern laid the foundation), but then again we still have (and had) Dembele on our books. We cant just write players off like that. At least not a year ago when there was still hope.
Haaland - 2021/22 at the earliest. Doesnt strike me as someone who actually wants to play for us though.
Mane - sure
I count one realistic player.
Didnt want to answer, but fuck me. You make it sound like switching Mandzukic for Lewa was a bad decision ;D At City he prefers Aguero and to an extent Jesus, because they are their best 9s. Simple. Whats his alternative? Transfer them for a guy like Giroud? There are maybe 3-5 decent centre forwards - Aguero is one of them.
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BBZ8800
Senior Member
It is not about good or bad.
That's subjective.
The point is that Pep's teams lean more towards movement, possession, build up, technique.
And players who can execute that perfectly are usually David Silvas, Iniestas, Bernardo Silvas and similar.
Now, I am not saying that it is bad.
Because it has advantages, especially if you are managed by Pep.
But even when Pep manages these players, they are perfect in some areas and flawed in others.
And when you have that system copied by someone else (Barca without Pep or after Pep), then Pep's system has even more flaws than under current Pep.
So:
1. Even if we would get Pep back at Barca today, you know what you would get. A good plan A, a horrible plan B.
Or 99% perfect possession play and meh defense, aerial strength, long balls, crosses, corners, headers, longshots.
Not to mention no fighters but 11 choirboy David Silvas or Iniestas.
Because Pep was that type of a player and it seems that he can work only with submissive choir boys.
Zlatan, Mandzukic, Yaya, Etoo.
Any stronger-leader personality had problems with Pep.
2. But that system without Pep turns into: not so good plan A and still no plan B.
Still filled with light players and mental choir boys.
For you probably, benefits of Pep's plan A outweights the disadvantages which his style of play brings.
For me in 2020, I am not that sure that advantages of Pep's plan A are worth it of all the problems which he creates in other areas.
About Aguero and Jesus, Pep has all the money in the world.
He could have bought a different type of a no9 if he wanted to.
But he doesn't want to.
He wants those short forwards who move well and that's it.
On the other hand, look at No9s bought by Rijkaard:
Etoo
Larsson
Maxi Lopez
Gudjohnsen
Quite a different types than Aguero and Jesus.
He got rid of light and short Saviola as fast as he could.
So it is not the point of money and Aguero.
Pep tried with taller no9s but it doesn't work for him.
Rijkaard hated short no9s on the other hand.
It is about phylosophy.
And as I have mentioned in my previous posts, due to Pep's golden 3 years, we will now live under his curse for the next 20-30 years trying to replicate his ideas.
Which stopped working even for him at Barca.
And which aren't working that well for him without Messi after Barca.
In that sense, Lautaro is an example of our board trying to copy Pep's work.
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You cant just seperate these issues. Thats disingenuous. Theres rarely a choice between roughly equal players with different characteristics. Not to mention that Aguero wasnt even bought by Pep. Give Rijkaard the choice between Aguero and Larsson/Maxi Lopez/Gudjohnsen and he will 99% pick the more skilled player (as a starter).
You try to construct a narrative that Guardiola is high on light players when that was only true for Barcelona (and very successful in 3 out of 4 years). Your argument with Lewandowski/Mandzukic is complete bullshit. You try to force things.
You said Pep at City has all the money in the world (which is true) and mention that not replacing Aguero for a taller striker is a sign of his philosophy? You believe that? Which coach would? Not even Mourinho would go that far.
And what the hell has Lautaro to do with Guardiola? Now every player <1,8m is tagged as a Pep midget? He has the monopoly now? Our board tries to get him not in an afford to copy Guardiola (we didnt try that since Tito/Tata*), but because there are exactly two interesting striker options right now: Lautaro and Haaland. Both have pros and coins.
*I would like to see some facts where exactly our board tried to copy Guardiola. We can talk when Xavi is here. Enrique/Valverde couldnt have been further from Peps philosophy. Griezmann (coming from a complete different footballing culture), Coutinho and Dembele (our big transfers) dont strike me as Pep signature players. Arthur is probably the only recent transfer, whobelongs in that category - and at the very least he has been damn good business. Even you would agree.
BBZ8800
Senior Member
Lovin, Rijkaard had Saviola in his first season.
And then bought Etoo and Larsson.
At least he bought 2 players of different characteristics to have a few different options.
Etoo is fast and furious, Larsson is closer to a killer inside of a box and he was good in the air, inspite of being 176.
Then Larsson injured knee ligaments in his first season (2004/05) in October/November.
And then Rijkaard had only 1 attacker in Etoo.
Then he signed a new guy in a winter transfermarket, but AGAIN a guy who had a physical and aerial presence: tall and strong Maxi Lopez.
For 2005/06 season, Larsson returned and we won a CL with Etoo as a starter and Larsson as a plan B.
Then Larsson decided to leave, and guess what, for the 3rd time Rijkaard bought the same type of an attacker, now tall and strong Gudjohnsen.
Director Beguiristain wanted picchicci Forlan.
Rijkaard said no because he was of different profile than these strong No9s.
President Laporta wanted Henry that summer. Rijkaard declined because he needed a no9.
So, you see, sometimes it is not about quality but about vision.
Rijkaard declined better players Henry and Forlan for Gudjohnsen because he was offering a plan B.
Now go to Pep.
What is his plan B in attack?
There is no plan B.
He plays plan A till death.
And players who come in are clones of the players who were subbed.
Under Rijkaard our quality was:
Possession 85%
Counters 80%
Headers 70%
With Pep:
Possession: Goat mode
Counters: weaker
Headers: zero
If you get my point?
Pep has his phylosophy.
When working, it is perfect.
When not working, he doesn't have too many options to change because majority of his players are clones.
So, it's no surprise why his 2 attackers are Aguero and Jesus.
Mahrez 179
Jesus 175
David Silva 173
Bernardo 173
Aguero 173
Sterling 170
Do you think it's a coincidence?
He likes shorter players who can run and move easily in tight spaces.
That's his phylosophy.
It has advantages and disadvantages.
One disadvantage is zero CL wins without Messi.
And then bought Etoo and Larsson.
At least he bought 2 players of different characteristics to have a few different options.
Etoo is fast and furious, Larsson is closer to a killer inside of a box and he was good in the air, inspite of being 176.
Then Larsson injured knee ligaments in his first season (2004/05) in October/November.
And then Rijkaard had only 1 attacker in Etoo.
Then he signed a new guy in a winter transfermarket, but AGAIN a guy who had a physical and aerial presence: tall and strong Maxi Lopez.
For 2005/06 season, Larsson returned and we won a CL with Etoo as a starter and Larsson as a plan B.
Then Larsson decided to leave, and guess what, for the 3rd time Rijkaard bought the same type of an attacker, now tall and strong Gudjohnsen.
Director Beguiristain wanted picchicci Forlan.
Rijkaard said no because he was of different profile than these strong No9s.
President Laporta wanted Henry that summer. Rijkaard declined because he needed a no9.
So, you see, sometimes it is not about quality but about vision.
Rijkaard declined better players Henry and Forlan for Gudjohnsen because he was offering a plan B.
Now go to Pep.
What is his plan B in attack?
There is no plan B.
He plays plan A till death.
And players who come in are clones of the players who were subbed.
Under Rijkaard our quality was:
Possession 85%
Counters 80%
Headers 70%
With Pep:
Possession: Goat mode
Counters: weaker
Headers: zero
If you get my point?
Pep has his phylosophy.
When working, it is perfect.
When not working, he doesn't have too many options to change because majority of his players are clones.
So, it's no surprise why his 2 attackers are Aguero and Jesus.
Mahrez 179
Jesus 175
David Silva 173
Bernardo 173
Aguero 173
Sterling 170
Do you think it's a coincidence?
He likes shorter players who can run and move easily in tight spaces.
That's his phylosophy.
It has advantages and disadvantages.
One disadvantage is zero CL wins without Messi.
Like Martinez? ;D
I get what you are trying to say, but Saviola got replaced because he wasnt good enough. Nothing else. If that was Aguero Rijkaard would have stuck with him. And ideally you want two centre forwards in your squad and the backup one maybe being more of a crowbar type of guy. No idea why we strayed from that, but pretty much every other top team did as well. Bayern, Real, Juventus and City all have rather one dimensional choices up top - the physically strong backup striker seems to be gone from modern football (maybe because smaller teams can pay fortunes now?).
Regarding CL wins: I honestly didnt watch a lot of City, so no comment there. But for Bayern he lost vs two all time great teams (Real and MSN Barca) and got Atletico'd (with one of the best team performances I have ever seen from Bayern - Liverpool with a different profile fucked up as well).
CL is a random, messy competition.
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