Lionel Messi - v7

te amo barca said:

If you think that endless humiliations don’t warrant criticism, then nothing does for you.

p.s. Your holier-than-thou attitude is also pissing me off, to be honest. If I'm not a "rEaL bArCa FaN" for you, that's okay, but keep it to yourself, because I am quite sure I support this club.

Click to expand...

Eh? What part of ' This doesn't mean they should not be criticised ' did you deliberately ignore from my previous post. For the record, I'm not accusing you of not being a 'real' Barca fan , I'm accusing you of being an undercover Ronaldo fanboy with a sly hateful agenda against Messi, due to the overwhelming evidence that you are.

Glad we cleared that up.

serghei said:

We can get the ball up if we don't bench our best passer and have our forwards move more often. You basically limit the area Messi is moving in, but you up the frequency of his lateral movements to get away from marking and look the spaces between the defenders. He hides way too often behind the defenders. Suarez needs dropped, and Griezmann needs to play who is much more active and adept at finding and exploiting spaces to receive in.

We don't get the ball up very well because we are managed by a defensive idiot. We can't get rid of the idiot because there are other idiots like Messi and Suarez, and Alba and Rakitic who like him. And another idiot who listens to the legends way too much in Barto.

Click to expand...

Yes I agree. We need those changes and then we should be good. It's a smart idea to limit Messis movement and make him move more closer to net.

FinBarcelonafan said:

Yes I agree. We need those changes and then we should be good. It's a smart idea to limit Messis movement and make him move more closer to net.

Click to expand...

It's too late. All these ideas are centered around the manager. If he's not good, nothing will work. The good part is that many of our new players are young and will get a sold chance with hopefully a competent manager in terms of possession attacking football. Whatever Valverde is, he has no clue how to build attacks in possession. Anyone who watches our games with a bit of a critical eye has seen this by now.

Also, you can drop Messi deep and play him at times as a deep lying playmaker, but for this to work well, two things need to happen. Messi needs to have defensive roles if the ball is lost, because the play will catch him in a sensible position for us, one that if it is not blocked, it can hurt us. Which means he has to run, track opponents, cover ground, intercept and do a bunch of defensive things he can't do and is not even willing to try to do.

Because of this, we cannot allow our other midfielders to go up, leaving Messi alone and providing him pass option up front. Because of this, when Messi drops, you can see that nobody takes his place. This happens because if the ball is lost, Messi will be a non-factor as the temporary DM. Which means Busi and Rakitic need to stay back.

The basics of fluid football say that a player can momentarily take up the position of a teammate, but when you take the position of Rakitic for example, and allow Rakitic to move up, you also need to take the initial role of Rakitic, not only on the ball, but also off it. Roles are tied to positions, not to players. Messi being in a DM position means he has to do the DM work in that specific play.

To put it simple, Messi cannot effectively appear as a deep lying playmaker, because he can't do the required things if the ball is lost. Which means the player who was initially there has to stay there. This basically means we lose 1 player from the attack, because the position Messi vacates is not occupied by another player from Barcelona. Hence the big holes in the images. Positions Messi vacated that weren't occupied by somebody else.

serghei said:

It's too late. All these ideas are centered around the manager. If he's not good, nothing will work. The good part is that many of our new players are young and will get a sold chance with hopefully a competent manager in terms of possession attacking football. Whatever Valverde is, he has no clue how to build attacks in possession. Anyone who watches our games with a bit of a critical eye has seen this by now.

Also, you can drop Messi deep and play him at times as a deep lying playmaker, but for this to work well, two things need to happen. Messi needs to have defensive roles if the ball is lost, because the play will catch him in a sensible position for us, one that if it is not blocked, it can hurt us. Which means he has to run, track opponents, cover ground, intercept and do a bunch of defensive things he can't do and is not even willing to try to do.

Because of this, we cannot allow our other midfielders to go up, leaving Messi alone and providing him pass option up front. Because of this, when Messi drops, you can see that nobody takes his place. This happens because if the ball is lost, Messi will be a non-factor as the temporary DM. Which means Busi and Rakitic need to stay back.

The basics of fluid football say that a player can momentarily take up the position of a teammate, but when you take the position of Rakitic for example, and allow Rakitic to move up, you also need to take the initial role of Rakitic, not only on the ball, but also off it. Roles are tied to positions, not to players. Messi being in a DM position means he has to do the DM work in that specific play.

To put it simple, Messi cannot effectively appear as a deep lying playmaker, because he can't do the required things if the ball is lost. Which means the player who was initially there has to stay there. This basically means we lose 1 player from the attack, because the position Messi vacates is not occupied by another player from Barcelona. Hence the big holes in the images. Positions Messi vacated that weren't occupied by somebody else.

Click to expand...

Wow well said. I guess the problem lies here, so it's not Rakitics fault he has to stay back but Messi coming back and taking his position.

Also, this is why Guardiola implemented the 6 second rule of getting the ball back after it is lost as fast as possible. Because he used a super fluid formation, with very complicated exchanging of positions. Almost like a continuously morphing shape, very similar in terms of shape, but with interchanging players occupying the positions. A lot of times in lost possession cases players would be caught in non-natural positions. Alves would be somewhere in midfield, Iniesta would be too wide, maybe Busi would be slightly off center. Without that pressing, without getting the ball back as a unit, the weight would've been individually on the exposed players. And no matter how much of a multi-purpose player you are, when the system has you in other places than your natural position, you are going to suffer if the ball is played on you. The pressing was designed both as an attacking weapon, as well as cover for the players the system exposed.

If you play a very fluid system in midfield, and you do not imply some sort of aggressive unit pressing to get the ball back fast, you then need to use a very similar midfield, made with only CM-DM types, all of which could keep their shit if caught exposed. This is a reason why Arthur - Vidal - De Jong would work well. And also the reason Coutinho wouldn't really work in our midfield without more workrate and pressing from the forwards. But would work in Liverpool's where there is the pressing as a fallback plan when ball is turned over.

Bottom line there have been numerous matches where Messi actually stayed upfront in the first 10 or 15 minutes of the match and guess what happened? You guess right, he didn't touch the fucking ball once. The opposing midfielders simply pressed the tutles in our own half and they couldn't move the ball once past the half line. Those images don't show half the shit the midfield doesn't or can't do and that is function like a proper Barcelona midfield and eliminate opposition players by moving or dribbling.

I get the criticism of Messi's lack of movement upfront, in the last 30 meters, because there are indeed instances where moving even 5 meters to the right or left would open a bunch of options for him and the rest of the players. Or moving 2 meters to one side would block the opppnents passing line and would stop a counter or a build up. I get those because I am often furious myself when I see him casually jogging when there is an opportunity for an incisive move and he just stands there.

But I won't ever understand the criticism of him dropping back in midfield, because since the times of Lucho, the midfielders and the coherent building of attacks have been second thoughts in the mind of our "brilliant" tacticians. They have either been bypassed with straight balls to Suarez/Messi/Neymar, tactics which have been found out in Lucho's second season, or been used as fucking workhorses with the creativity of a cactus. If Messi doesn't drop back he won't ever touch the ball when your mid is composed by Rakitic, Busquets and Vidal. There's no one between them that won't shit their pants and keep the ball if the opponent's press is organized and closes down spaces as well as the likes of Liverpool, City etc., so for the ball to move forward Messi has to drop back, get these bitches to pass it to him so he can take 2 or 3 players out of the play and eliberate their slow witted asses.

I am also pissed at Messi for supporting the abject manager that is Valverde but he's not at fault that he gets to keep the job, it's the boards fault for listening to Messi's rather stupid opinion. No player should have a say in which manager he gets or which player should play on any given day. A competent board, and not a spineless one like ours, would have seen what a limited, uncharismatic manager EV is and would have sacked the poor bastard last year after the Roma debacle or at the worst after the humiliating exit from this year's CL.

serghei said:

So, bottom line, get Messi out of the Xavi area fast. He isn't anywhere near Xavi at being a midfielder. Xavi used to play around 90 passes per game and put in 11km. Messi is probably at around 30% of those passes, and at around 8km average.

Click to expand...

Its not like he stays in that area all game. He comes back when he is frustrated because nothing is getting to the forwards from the midfield. Alot of the times he does this he creates danger

eaman said:

Its not like he stays in that area all game. He comes back when he is frustrated because nothing is getting to the forwards from the midfield. Alot of the times he does this he creates danger

Click to expand...

He stays way way too much. I saw his heat map vs Liverpool. He barely entered the 16m box. Mostly played in midfield. His heat map vs Liverpool looks almost as Iniesta's or Xavi's during Pep, only less intense (less red, mostly green), due to his workrate issues.

So when is the goat going to come back from holidays ?

Well I think we ALL can agree we haven't had the ideal 10 players around him and movement has been too stale.

These are some good pics and analysis of some situations with a 90 minute game. I do think they should be contrasted with some assists and plays created by Messi moving in such spaces and making some creative plays noone else on the roster can do since Iniesta waned/moved on. (Sadly, he doesn't have the confidence in his own teammates in the middle of the park like he did when Iniesta and Xavi were in their primes and toiling those areas, and we have always seen this pattern with Argentina.) Should he have more confidence in those around him, perhaps, does he do this because sometimes it is best for his team, perhaps, does he press himself too much to do this in pressure matches where his team is tied/behind, perhaps too). I am pretty sure Messi and the staff (and hopefully other players) look at situations like this and try to pick spots better. Surely AG (great all around passer and reader of the game) and De Jong (playmaking from deep) can help in ways that were not available in the roster for a while.

I just rewatched this play from 2017, mainly to follow Messi's decisive movements. This was a play that nearly stole us the domestic title against Real during the one year in over a decade they actually did have the best team in the world.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8GjrmtxIA0
Full match highlights
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhxZvM4CFBo

A few things stood out. Messi was relatively far upfield on the winner (and the 1st goal)--to serghei's point. Also brilliant football and a great run and timely pass by Roberto (can't as of yet imagine semedo pulling that off), key passes by Pique & Busi & Alba, and I think Gomes(?) in there too. Suarez and Rakitic (terrific overall game against unquestionable the best midfield that year) also ran themselves (in the 92rd minute no less) into very good positions for drawing Real's attention. As an aside, this moment was every bit as big and intense as a CL moment--just look at both teams reactions and effort put in--the match was the highest intensity and highest quality football played that year. Messi was also unquestionably the best and most decisive footballer on a pitch filled with great footballers (BdO to the best footballer that year, hah?). Also why it is silly to take out "away CL matches" somehow out of the context of the whole series of big matches in a year or even multiple years to draw a trend or make observations about players. (The whole bs narrative Suarez sucks because in a selected string of matches removed from other matches and overall context his personal goals are not there).

Sorin said:

I am also pissed at Messi for supporting the abject manager that is Valverde but he's not at fault that he gets to keep the job, it's the boards fault for listening to Messi's rather stupid opinion. No player should have a say in which manager he gets or which player should play on any given day. .

Click to expand...

I agree with the part on board inaction. But it is almost never productive for a player to attack a manager or fellow directly in the press. That gets ugly and creates division that could persist into the next manager even if most players were indifferent or thought the 1st manager wasn't very good. We don't know what Messi thinks privately and what he may have communicated to the board and others.

The good think is the team has added AG--with or w/o players full support--who himself can drop deeper than other forward to make the right pass/dribble, and FDJ, the best prospect in the world for adding dynamism and creativity from a deep midfield position. Two great steps in player personelle to help Messi and the squad are there.

serghei said:

Also, this is why Guardiola implemented the 6 second rule of getting the ball back after it is lost as fast as possible. Because he used a super fluid formation, with very complicated exchanging of positions. Almost like a continuously morphing shape, very similar in terms of shape, but with interchanging players occupying the positions. A lot of times in lost possession cases players would be caught in non-natural positions. Alves would be somewhere in midfield, Iniesta would be too wide, maybe Busi would be slightly off center. Without that pressing, without getting the ball back as a unit, the weight would've been individually on the exposed players. And no matter how much of a multi-purpose player you are, when the system has you in other places than your natural position, you are going to suffer if the ball is played on you. The pressing was designed both as an attacking weapon, as well as cover for the players the system exposed.

If you play a very fluid system in midfield, and you do not imply some sort of aggressive unit pressing to get the ball back fast, you then need to use a very similar midfield, made with only CM-DM types, all of which could keep their shit if caught exposed.

Click to expand...

For ages, we've been asking for better, fast paced, attacking players. Don't get why you're shifting the blame from the board to Messi. Same with the Valverde situation. It's been discussed at length but you keep bringing it back to Messi as if he's the one who signed Valv his extension but yeah, if I were one of Leo's pals, I'd tell him to immediately drop the captaincy as it just gives folks an opening to shit on him, so I agree with you there.

Since you like discussions on positional plays and movements, thought you might enjoy this vid -->

snowy said:

For ages, we've been asking for better, fast paced, attacking players. Don't get why you're shifting the blame from the board to Messi. Same with the Valverde situation. It's been discussed at length but you keep bringing it back to Messi as if he's the one who signed Valv his extension but yeah, if I were one of Leo's pals, I'd tell him to immediately drop the captaincy as it just gives folks an opening to shit on him, so I agree with you there.

Since you like discussions on positional plays and movements, thought you might enjoy this vid -->

Click to expand...

Video has nothing to do with what I posted. Almost all of those runs are from just outside the box into the danger area. Which was Messi's trademark, but they are becoming more and more rare against the big teams.

Sure, manager is first to blame, then the board for sticking with the manager, but also Messi for going along with this and even supporting this manager. Messi's action makes it very probable that he agrees with the current state of things. Sorry, I just disagree completely.

You have, board, manager, veterans (yea, Messi totally included). All responsible for the shit in the CL. All need to change what they are doing, or else this is going to happen again. It is clear that despite the talk, nobody learned a damn thing from the Roma fiasco, and Liverpool was an even worse fiasco.

serghei said:

Video has nothing to do with what I posted. Almost all of those runs are from just outside the box into the danger area. Which was Messi's trademark, but they are becoming more and more rare against the big teams.

Click to expand...

bullshit, he still makes them when there's actually a player in a situation to pass him the ball.

Sure, manager is first to blame, then the board for sticking with the manager, but also Messi for going along with this and even supporting this manager. Messi's action makes it very probable that he agrees with the current state of things.

Click to expand...

You sound like a broken record. You've been moaning like a bitch about this shit since the press conf.

You have, board, manager, veterans (yea, Messi totally included). All responsible for the shit in the CL. All need to change what they are doing, or else this is going to happen again. It is clear that despite the talk, nobody learned a damn thing from the Roma fiasco, and Liverpool was an even worse fiasco.

Click to expand...

Guess what, everybody here posted more or less a version of the same at one point or another after Roma and Anfield. Yet you feel the need to repeat it over and over ad nauseum.

but fine, you wanna be a whining bitch for the rest of your life, be my guest this ain't fun anymore n this pool is getting waaaay too toxic. I'm flying to Tahiti

I'm a nice dude so I'll leave you guys this nice vid as parting gift

Smart static Messi hehe imagine that


Ciaoooo

FinBarcelonafan said:

Hmmmmm. So what other options we have? We have no creativity in the midfield. Messi has to do this or we would never get the ball up. Our lack of good midfielder is showing in this the most. I would blame this on people who signed the players. We have no one who can create in midfield. It shouldn't be Messis job.

General lack of movement is unacceptable. It seems like the players try to hide and let Messi do everything by himself.

DeJong should help us in this a lot. He can bring the ball up and make forward pass.

Click to expand...

This is not about lack of creativity. We should not be trying to feed Messi through balls, we should be trying to feed him line-breaking passes and he should be waiting in the number 10 area between the opposition's midfield and defense to receive them. Busi, Rakitic, Arthur all can make those passes 9/10 times. Instead of this, he drops deep in the defensive midifelder area to progress the ball by himself while everyone around him (except Alba and Suarez, mostly) just stands and watches instead of running into space.

Ernesto GOATverde Tejedor said:

Eh? What part of ' This doesn't mean they should not be criticised ' did you deliberately ignore from my previous post. For the record, I'm not accusing you of not being a 'real' Barca fan , I'm accusing you of being an undercover Ronaldo fanboy with a sly hateful agenda against Messi, due to the overwhelming evidence that you are.

Glad we cleared that up.

Click to expand...

Can't believe how wrong you are. Whatever, mate, accuse me all you want. You are a Messi fanboy first, Barca supporter (are you?) second for me by the same token then.