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Thread: 11 - Ousmane Dembele

  1. #7666
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    For sure that his teammates are not as fast as him but he has spent like 4 years here and still can not find the rhythm, then it is his problem.

  2. #7667
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    Quote Originally Posted by vegitot View Post
    You may consider Traore as top 5 greatest dribbler in history, base on success rate and number. That talks a lot.

    Dembele is far from elite tier. And he will never hit it with his technique.
    But Traore is one of the best dribblers currently (he's among top 5 or 10), based on dribble frequency and successful dribbles. However, dribbles aren't everything in football.

  3. #7668
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    Quote Originally Posted by feggydinho View Post
    But Traore is one of the best dribblers currently (he's among top 5 or 10), based on dribble frequency and successful dribbles. However, dribbles aren't everything in football.
    He is indeed really good one. His stats are unreal.0

  4. #7669
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo32 View Post
    Don't have to imagine, right, France can play them... Let us see.
    Touche my friend.
    FCB11

    ----Long ball to Martens----
    Pass left to Martens-Pass forward to Martens-Left foot to Martens
    Pass back to Martens-------------------------------Cut back to Martens
    ----Through Ball to Martens -----
    ---Ignore shot and pass to Martens---Backheel to Martens---
    ----I am Martens----1-2 with Martens----

  5. #7670
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    Quote Originally Posted by Birdy View Post
    Leaving aside all the non-football issues you bring up for the moment,

    Again you are not showing anything. There is nothing arrogant mate in what I say.

    You have to make your point clearly and in articulate way, and till now you haven't
    You say "how a player influence's their teams overall play offensively can judged by things like touches, pass accuracy, successful crosses, big chances created "
    Why?
    How?
    explain
    touches for example can mean all and can mean nothing. It depends what you want to say about touches.
    You have to make a relevant point in regards to them. For example "X player touches the ball N times inside the box, which means that ... "
    If the second part is missing, you have no point. You are throwing numbers that are supposed to tell something, which you haven't yet decided what this is.

    SAying that "these stats are used by many to get a snapshot at players influence on the run of play, take a casual glance at Football Twitter" proves again that you haven't decided what the stats are supposed to show, and in what way.
    I don't care if these 4 stats in particular are the most commonly posted on twitter.
    Evaluation of the stat and attaching it to a clear point is what matters.

    Try again if you want.
    So far, no argument in regards to Dembele's ability against low blocks
    I find it both funny and a bit contradictory how you want me to hold you by the hand and walk you through the stats I posted in comparison with other players; fail to comprehend how a stat like chance creation and touches can help you determine a players overall influence on their teams play in game, and then proceed to post pompous bullshit like this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Birdy View Post
    I know stats million times better than you.
    So cut the BS

    Either prove that this dribbling success rate is not good somehow, or please STFU
    Thanks
    Must be a riot at parties.

  6. #7671
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    Quote Originally Posted by i_bleed_blaugrana View Post
    I find it both funny and a bit contradictory how you want me to hold you by the hand and walk you through the stats I posted in comparison with other players; fail to comprehend how a stat like chance creation and touches can help you determine a players overall influence on their teams play in game, and then proceed to post pompous bullshit like this:
    Everybody gets what he/she deserves. I am not going to talk in the same way to someone who respects the conversation and to someone who does not or willingly distorts things to push an agenda.

    In regards to you, I think I replied in a civil manner.
    I don't want you to "hold me by the hand" (sic), by the way. Generic terms again like "overall influence" confirm what I already pointed out before:
    Thus far you haven't made a concrete argumentative point.
    Make it clear first to yourself what you want to point out by each individual stat you cite, and it will be easier then to communicate it
    1992

  7. #7672
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    Quote Originally Posted by Birdy View Post
    Everybody gets what he/she deserves. I am not going to talk in the same way to someone who respects the conversation and to someone who does not or willingly distorts things to push an agenda.

    In regards to you, I think I replied in a civil manner.
    I don't want you to "hold me by the hand" (sic), by the way. Generic terms again like "overall influence" confirm what I already pointed out before:
    Thus far you haven't made a concrete argumentative point.
    Make it clear first to yourself what you want to point out by each individual stat you cite, and it will be easier then to communicate it
    - Dembele disappears in big games. Our flow of play offensively does not go through him, especially in big matches. He does not get on the ball enough and when he does, he is not consistent with what he delivers. (touches, heatmap, big chances created)

    - Dembele has no consistency to his end product (big chances created, G/As, successful crosses, successful long balls)

    - Despite his dribbling ability and pace, Dembele is not very creative and still needs to work on his decision making and positioning. This is why especially against low blocks, Dembele often struggles to find space and turns the ball over when he tries to dribble his way out of a double mark (possession lost, passing percentage, successful dribbles, big chances created/missed)

    Therefore:

    Dembele is no where close to being a player who breaks down buses/low blocks, let alone being the best player in this squad who can do so.

    Is this concrete enough for you?

    This entire exercise is really pedantic by the way and you continue to miss the bigger narrative of what is going on with him right now. It is weird you want to go through all these mental and rhetorical gymnastics for a player who clearly does not give a shit about this club and seems to be trying to snake us the same way Neymar did.

  8. #7673
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    Quote Originally Posted by i_bleed_blaugrana View Post
    - Dembele disappears in big games. Our flow of play offensively does not go through him, especially in big matches. He does not get on the ball enough and when he does, he is not consistent with what he delivers. (touches, heatmap, big chances created)

    - Dembele has no consistency to his end product (big chances created, G/As, successful crosses, successful long balls)

    - Despite his dribbling ability and pace, Dembele is not very creative and still needs to work on his decision making and positioning. This is why especially against low blocks, Dembele often struggles to find space and turns the ball over when he tries to dribble his way out of a double mark (possession lost, passing percentage, successful dribbles, big chances created/missed)

    Therefore:

    Dembele is no where close to being a player who breaks down buses/low blocks, let alone being the best player in this squad who can do so.

    Is this concrete enough for you?

    This entire exercise is really pedantic by the way and you continue to miss the bigger narrative of what is going on with him right now. It is weird you want to go through all these mental and rhetorical gymnastics for a player who clearly does not give a shit about this club and seems to be trying to snake us the same way Neymar did.
    Birdy gets a kick out of arguing. You'll find him all over the website writing paragraphs and paragraphs over multiple topics and players every day. Just let it go and chill.

  9. #7674
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laplacian View Post
    Birdy gets a kick out of arguing. You'll find him all over the website writing paragraphs and paragraphs over multiple topics and players every day. Just let it go and chill.
    100%.

    That was my last one fam

  10. #7675
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    Quote Originally Posted by i_bleed_blaugrana View Post
    - Dembele disappears in big games. Our flow of play offensively does not go through him, especially in big matches. He does not get on the ball enough and when he does, he is not consistent with what he delivers. (touches, heatmap, big chances created)

    - Dembele has no consistency to his end product (big chances created, G/As, successful crosses, successful long balls)

    - Despite his dribbling ability and pace, Dembele is not very creative and still needs to work on his decision making and positioning. This is why especially against low blocks, Dembele often struggles to find space and turns the ball over when he tries to dribble his way out of a double mark (possession lost, passing percentage, successful dribbles, big chances created/missed)

    Therefore:

    Dembele is no where close to being a player who breaks down buses/low blocks, let alone being the best player in this squad who can do so.

    Is this concrete enough for you?

    This entire exercise is really pedantic by the way and you continue to miss the bigger narrative of what is going on with him right now. It is weird you want to go through all these mental and rhetorical gymnastics for a player who clearly does not give a shit about this club and seems to be trying to snake us the same way Neymar did.
    Agreed and why I hope to see him gone but then again I wanted that to be the case last summer despite how much he still surprised this past season

    4 seasons here, clear to say he has been largely disappointing and at best flattering to deceive. More than anything else, I do not see a player with the mentality you seek for an attacking player at Barca. Any continuation in that fruitless endeavour is simply an exercise in futility while ensuring he walks to free to add insult to injury

    He has to be moved
    Paolo Maldini - "In my opinion, Messi should win the Ballon D'Or each year. He's an unbelievable player."

  11. #7676
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    If Dembele played basketball:

    https://twitter.com/lbjamesharden/st...058422788?s=21


  12. #7677
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    Quote Originally Posted by i_bleed_blaugrana View Post
    - Dembele disappears in big games. Our flow of play offensively does not go through him, especially in big matches. He does not get on the ball enough and when he does, he is not consistent with what he delivers. (touches, heatmap, big chances created)

    - Dembele has no consistency to his end product (big chances created, G/As, successful crosses, successful long balls)

    - Despite his dribbling ability and pace, Dembele is not very creative and still needs to work on his decision making and positioning. This is why especially against low blocks, Dembele often struggles to find space and turns the ball over when he tries to dribble his way out of a double mark (possession lost, passing percentage, successful dribbles, big chances created/missed)

    Therefore:

    Dembele is no where close to being a player who breaks down buses/low blocks, let alone being the best player in this squad who can do so.

    Is this concrete enough for you?

    This entire exercise is really pedantic by the way and you continue to miss the bigger narrative of what is going on with him right now. It is weird you want to go through all these mental and rhetorical gymnastics for a player who clearly does not give a shit about this club and seems to be trying to snake us the same way Neymar did.
    Last paragraph I might agree with you, but it's off-topic. We are discussing his football skills now

    About 2: his finishing was not part of the discussion. What does finishing have to do with 'breaking buses'?
    Probably nothing, but let's just cram every negative we can find about him to gain credibility, right?

    About 1: Here you cite things that are not related to one another.
    'flow does not go through him' for instance can mean many things.
    Can mean for example that his teammates are not passing the ball enough to him.
    Is that what you want to point out? Probably not

    Then you mention creativity, which is in need of specification. What big chances shall a winger in barca create?
    Messi's way of playing means that he has the ball most of the time in central positions to shoot/make the final pass.
    So I assume you are not referring to through-balls, right?
    Wingers in Barca can either do one of the two: be on the receiving end of a MEssi's pass coming from the wing OR
    dribble from the wing and either shoot/ square a cross in the box
    Are you referring to Dembele's crosses when you bring up creativity?

    About 3:
    Again many unrelated things brought under the same heading.
    What does decision-making and positioning have to do with pace and dribbling ability to begin with?
    What does passing percentage mean in those position? (which by the way is pretty high for Dembele. Check his stats I posted)

    When Dembele tries to dribble his way in/around a low-block he is successful more times than not. What happens after a successful dribble depends on how the whole team plays. For instance, if he dribbles successful from the outside, and then there is no one in the box for a low cross, that's not on him necessarily

    So, you haven't proved anything yet.
    On the contrary, the fact that he has a high dribbling success rate even against low-blocks means that he is more than useful for Barca when facing low-blocks, which by the way deal easier with players trying to penetrate centrally rather than trying to create a break on the wing
    1992

  13. #7678
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    Quote Originally Posted by Birdy View Post
    Last paragraph I might agree with you, but it's off-topic. We are discussing his football skills now

    About 2: his finishing was not part of the discussion. What does finishing have to do with 'breaking buses'?
    Probably nothing, but let's just cram every negative we can find about him to gain credibility, right?

    About 1: Here you cite things that are not related to one another.
    'flow does not go through him' for instance can mean many things.
    Can mean for example that his teammates are not passing the ball enough to him.
    Is that what you want to point out? Probably not

    Then you mention creativity, which is in need of specification. What big chances shall a winger in barca create?
    Messi's way of playing means that he has the ball most of the time in central positions to shoot/make the final pass.
    So I assume you are not referring to through-balls, right?
    Wingers in Barca can either do one of the two: be on the receiving end of a MEssi's pass coming from the wing OR
    dribble from the wing and either shoot/ square a cross in the box
    Are you referring to Dembele's crosses when you bring up creativity?

    About 3:
    Again many unrelated things brought under the same heading.
    What does decision-making and positioning have to do with pace and dribbling ability to begin with?
    What does passing percentage mean in those position? (which by the way is pretty high for Dembele. Check his stats I posted)

    When Dembele tries to dribble his way in/around a low-block he is successful more times than not. What happens after a successful dribble depends on how the whole team plays. For instance, if he dribbles successful from the outside, and then there is no one in the box for a low cross, that's not on him necessarily

    So, you haven't proved anything yet.
    On the contrary, the fact that he has a high dribbling success rate even against low-blocks means that he is more than useful for Barca when facing low-blocks, which by the way deal easier with players trying to penetrate centrally rather than trying to create a break on the wing
    Buddy, learn how to take an L and move on. You are just repeating the same stuff over and over again and this is not going anywhere. If you cannot comprehend how fundamental positioning and decision-making are for assessing a players creativity, it makes me genuinely doubt you have been watching ball since ‘94 as you claim.

    You spent all this time beating a dead horse instead of enjoying Netherlands - Ukraine. Maybe you should spend less time trying to win arguments and more time watching the game and learning football statistic definitions because I am exhausted, not getting anything out of this discussion, and finished trying to explain to you the most rudimentary of concepts.

    Especially after you have acknowledged that there are 1000 more relevant conversations to be had over this clown currently but you want to keep yelling in the sky about fucking football stats.

    Pass. Go annoy someone else, por fa.

  14. #7679
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    Quote Originally Posted by i_bleed_blaugrana View Post
    Buddy, learn how to take an L and move on. You are just repeating the same stuff over and over again and this is not going anywhere. If you cannot comprehend how fundamental positioning and decision-making are for assessing a players creativity, it makes me genuinely doubt you have been watching ball since ‘94 as you claim.

    You spent all this time beating a dead horse instead of enjoying Netherlands - Ukraine. Maybe you should spend less time trying to win arguments and more time watching the game and learning football statistic definitions because I am exhausted, not getting anything out of this discussion, and finished trying to explain to you the most rudimentary of concepts.

    Especially after you have acknowledged that there are 1000 more relevant conversations to be had over this clown currently but you want to keep yelling in the sky about fucking football stats.

    Pass. Go annoy someone else, por fa.
    Thanks, I watched the game, and I am sure I have watched more football in my life if you are significantly younger.

    As for the rest, sure let's pass since you cannot make a case eventually.
    Oh, and that means the L is on you by the way.

    You write interesting long posts about tactics and stuff, but you have to do better in learning how to argue.
    word of advice: Generalities and cliches like "how fundamental positioning and decision-making are for assessing a players creativity" can't cut it, learn how to avoid them
    1992

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    Country: Australia
    Liverpool should be all over him. Klopp can turm him into a superstar.

    All those spaces they get in the premier league he will be banging in goals for fun.