21 - Frenkie de Jong

Bobo32 said:

Two lols but no answer to my question.

What to make about your talk about high line. It's usually not relevant to buildup. Barcelona still play with a high line under Koeman.
If Barcelona are so pussy that they cannot let their defender build up play, then I do not think they should continue playing football. Maybe they should crochet instead. Frenkie is superfluos in these pics, useless. Or he makes Pique useless.
Maybe it is true when you have someone with a pass success rate of 71% and a similar recieving rate up front, you need your midfielders to drop deep to do the buildup instead of showing themselves centrally, so that the defenders can just wait and concentrate 100% on the inevitable counter... Not what I am used to!

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If Frenkie is superfluous there... how about Busi here



Most of Busi's deep build-up work is him dropping deep and getting the ball from CBs. If Pique is supposed to do that (he isn't, but whatever let's play according to your rules), just fucking move the DM up the field in build-up as a passing outlet.

So, what the fuck is Busi doing here?

serghei said:

Btw, there's a whole lot of images with Busi dropping deep collecting the ball from the CBs, in the same way as Frenkie. It's the same thing. The idea was to minimize the risk that the CBs would take.

I don't disagree in theory that CBs should eat as much space as possible and push up until near the halfway line if not pressed, but this would automatically mean you play a high line. I'm all for that, but Pique is actually the last guy you want in a high line. So is Lenglet. And Koeman is the wrong manager to do it.

I think you grossly overestimate how slow these veterans are. Even that phrase that Pique would advance with the ball faster than De Jong is hilarious . That's one of De Jong's best attributes, conducting the ball fast and finding pockets of space to carry it forward through.

This is the reason why 3-4-3 looked very good with De Jong as a libero, and totally crap with Pique there. He's a lot quicker with and without the ball. That system went to shit when Pique got back and De Jong was moved up into midfield.

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Yes Koeman likes to have a lot of people at space 0, and a lot of marked players near the opponents defence, along with isolated wing backs. Busquets is instructed to drop deep from CDM to the defence line, and then Pedri and Frenkie follows, marked, with their backs forwards.

Pique is standing still, useless, in your last pictures, he could've continued to jog forward, and he'd be in the same spot as Frenkie is in. The pass was useless, and it took extra time for Frenkie to turn etc. It's not about sprinting fast, especially not when you play 6v0, but being aware and making the right decision. When to break the line. With Frenkie dropping, there is 6v0 in the buildup, and 5v11 in Barcelona players after the breaking pass is made. This is unbalanced.

serghei said:

If Frenkie is superfluous there... how about Busi here

Most of Busi's deep build-up work is him dropping deep and getting the ball from CBs. If Pique is supposed to do that (he isn't, but whatever let's play according to your rules), just fucking move the DM up the field in build-up as a passing outlet.

So, what the fuck is Busi doing here?

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He is just as superfluous. Well slightly less since he is at least closer to where he should be.
But he is probably following instruction. This position is something new since Koeman. Yes sometimes earlier, but not at all as often, and not in these cases where there isn't even any press.
I hate it, but I've seen Busquets play differently for 10 years.

Bobo32 said:

Yes Koeman likes to have a lot of people at space 0, and a lot of marked players near the opponents defence, along with isolated wing backs. Busquets is instructed to drop deep from CDM to the defence line, and then Pedri and Frenkie follows, marked, with their backs forwards.

Pique is standing still, useless, in your last pictures, he could've continued to jog forward, and he'd be in the same spot as Frenkie is in. The pass was useless, and it took extra time for Frenkie to turn etc. It's not about sprinting fast, especially not when you play 6v0, but being aware and making the right decision. When to break the line. With Frenkie dropping, there is 6v0 in the buildup, and 5v11 in Barcelona players after the breaking pass is made. This is unbalanced.

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If Pique jogs forward with the ball into traffic, he abandons his position and leaves Lenglet alone. It's simply an extra risk. That's why the midfielder is doing that more often than not. See the last picture I posted.

That's an even worse case of extra caution from Koeman.

You have 5 at the back and only 1 midfielder providing an option in midfield, between 6(!!!) Kyiv players.

Bobo32 said:

He is just as superfluous. Well slightly less since he is at least closer to where he should be.
But he is probably following instruction. This position is something new since Koeman. Yes sometimes earlier, but not at all as often, and not in these cases where there isn't even any press.
I hate it, but I've seen Busquets play differently for 10 years.

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Well, that's my point man, that the tactics are affecting the way the players play to a great extent. Now this applies to Busi, but not De Jong, according to you. It's the same thing. Koeman is not providing our midfield with enough options to pass.

The ideea that the DM drops between the CB is good and it is used often. The CBs go very wide, and a 3 is formed. Allowing the 2 fullbacks to occupy more advanced positions. It's basically the transition between 4 at the back to 3 at the back for a short while. DM drops, fullbacks occupy more aggressive positions.

Look at the image, how are you supposed to build good attacks when you have 1 player in midfield surrounded by 6 opponents. It's crap.

serghei said:

If Pique jogs forward with the ball into traffic, he abandons his position and leaves Lenglet alone. It's simply an extra risk. That's why the midfielder is doing that more often than not. See the last picture I posted.

That's an even worse case of extra caution from Koeman.

You have 5 at the back and only 1 midfielder providing an option in midfield, between 6(!!!) Kyiv players.

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There is no risk, ter Stegen is always there as well as Mingueza and Lenglet, and the other players should position themselves well for good options forward.

The two pictures are equal, there are 5 outfield players in front of the opponents press, this is at least two too many. Well in the one with Frenkie, at least Mingu and Alba are running into space, but it shouldn't be the preferred way forward.

serghei said:

Well, that's my point man, that the tactics are affecting the way the players play to a great extent. Now this applies to Busi, but not De Jong, according to you. It's the same thing. Koeman is not providing our midfield with enough options to pass.

The ideea that the DM drops between the CB is good and it is used often. The CBs go very wide, and a 3 is formed. Allowing the 2 fullbacks to occupy more advanced positions. It's basically the transition between 4 at the back to 3 at the back for a short while. DM drops, fullbacks occupy more aggressive positions.

Look at the image, how are you supposed to build good attacks when you have 1 player in midfield surrounded by 6 opponents. It's crap.

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Both the pictures are bad.
Busquets does the dropping on instruction, Frenkie had the same problem under Valverde and Setien. That is why my opinion on the players differ. The situation is roughly the same, as I wrote.
Busquets is the best in the world, maybe ever, at not dropping but staying and connecting between opponents. Frenkie hasn't shown that, he is good at dropping and being very calm on the ball, but it isn't very much needed when Barcelonas defenders are also good on the ball, and already have their faces forward. But Frenkie prefers to play like that, and when he is in tight spaces he often finds ONE option, but rarely the best option. I doubt he even found the Dest (directly or through Busquets) option in the sequence you posted, because he ran too fast and lost his view, and instead turned and recycled the ball probably?

This dropping of the DMC I never liked. It works if you want to get through on the flanks and play crosses, many british teams have used that little movement that you describe. I don't think you could show me that many examples of Busquets doing that under Pep, at least I thought that was one thing that differentiated Barcelona at that time; Busquets calmness in staying in position, letting Pique and Puyol take some responsibility for the ball along with Valdes, and letting the opponents attackers decide if they should press or not (they always decided to not press)

Bobo32 said:

There is no risk, ter Stegen is always there as well as Mingueza and Lenglet, and the other players should position themselves well for good options forward.

The two pictures are equal, there are 5 outfield players in front of the opponents press, this is at least two too many. Well in the one with Frenkie, at least Mingu and Alba are running into space, but it shouldn't be the preferred way forward.

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OK, but the point is to not have to pass to Stegen, or Mingueza and Lenglet, because these are bad options for our build-up (especially Stegen or Lenglet).



Here is a build-up from Pep's Barca. You see the same movement here, but with much better adjustment from everyone, because... well... the team was well-drilled and tactically great. Everybody knew where to move, why, and how. Even normal players like Seydou Keita, Maxwell, Adriano.



Busi drops deep, takes the ball (he doesn't have to, but he does it because he's a creative player, more creative than a central defender, and because a 3 atb vs 2 attackers in 4-4-2 works great). but immediately the team immediately provides 3 central pass options AT ONCE (all expertly blocked by Mou's Madrid, who had a great defensive performance that day). So not only is Iniesta not waiting for the ball somewhere in offense cut off from the action (like Koemans' midfielders do while we build through crap wide zones all the time with overused fullbacks), but even Messi (the central forward) drops deep to provide an extra option. The shape is more of a 3-5-2, only Pedri and Villa remain slightly more advanced.

It's night and day. This was some mega-advanced stuff in 2011. But these days, almost all teams do something in this direction.

Bobo32 said:

Both the pictures are bad.
Busquets does the dropping on instruction, Frenkie had the same problem under Valverde and Setien. That is why my opinion on the players differ. The situation is roughly the same, as I wrote.
Busquets is the best in the world, maybe ever, at not dropping but staying and connecting between opponents. Frenkie hasn't shown that, he is good at dropping and being very calm on the ball, but it isn't very much needed when Barcelonas defenders are also good on the ball, and already have their faces forward. But Frenkie prefers to play like that, and when he is in tight spaces he often finds ONE option, but rarely the best option. I doubt he even found the Dest (directly or through Busquets) option in the sequence you posted, because he ran too fast and lost his view, and instead turned and recycled the ball probably?

This dropping of the DMC I never liked. It works if you want to get through on the flanks and play crosses, many british teams have used that little movement that you describe. I don't think you could show me that many examples of Busquets doing that under Pep, at least I thought that was one thing that differentiated Barcelona at that time; Busquets calmness in staying in position, letting Pique and Puyol take some responsibility for the ball along with Valdes, and letting the opponents attackers decide if they should press or not (they always decided to not press)

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Busquets often dropped between the CBs in the build-up, especially when the attacking team pressed with 2 players (basically 4-4-2 or variants). If the attacking team presses with 1, the 2 CBs are enough to stretch and handle very well that single opponent, it's overkill to drop in that case as either CB can advance on the ball if given the chance. If the opponent has 2 players upfront, it becomes more difficult for the CBs to advance since either can be pressed, so this is why the DM appears to pick up the ball and the CBs go very wide.


This is (or was) one of Busi's maine attributes. The deep-lying playmaker will be the one to do most of the build-up when it's not safe or handy for the CBs to claim space.

serghei said:

Busquets often dropped between the CBs in the build-up, especially when the attacking team pressed with 2 players (basically 4-4-2 or variants). If the attacking team presses with 1, the 2 CBs are enough to stretch and handle very well that single opponent, it's overkill to drop in that case as either CB can advance on the ball if given the chance. If the opponent has 2 players upfront, it becomes more difficult for the CBs to advance since either can be pressed, so this is why the DM appears to pick up the ball and the CBs go very wide.


This is (or was) one of Busi's maine attributes. The deep-lying playmaker will be the one to do most of the build-up when it's not safe or handy for the CBs to claim space.

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I am getting very tired now. Not from discussing tactics but from sleep deprivation.
There are large differences between what Busquets did then and what he does now, and it's a large difference when you have your MCs do it instead. I'll maybe watch the game you posted pictures from tomorrow for a bit to remind myself a bit more, and give a better response after that, analyzing your pictures etc.

I maintain that one of the big things with Busquets back then was his ability to stay and offer the progressive pass, often connecting immediately with Iniesta or Xavi after that. It was often a 4v2 with Valdes, Puyol and Pique in a diamiond and the opponents two forwards in the middle. Alves and Abidal stayed out of the way. Busquets could drop as an immediate option for a sideways pass to then be able to progress, I don't remember him staying there statically, but maybe he did for a few games.

The Dynamo game was a shitshow of positioning from everyone, not only Frenkie or Busi, everyone made terrible mistakes..
I don't know if that's an appropriate game to reference at all when discussing a player's flaws and virtues

On Frenkie in particular:

It's always a problem to misconstrue the nature of player by projecting into him either abilities that he does not have or desiderata one thinks he should be able to accomplish without a proper understanding of his skills first

1) Let's start by what Frenkie is NOT:
- he is NOT the new Busi.
He is not the player who will pinpoint 100% accurate breaking-line mid-long passes.
You can fantasize as much as you want that he can or should be able to do that, but that's not his game
- He is NOT a pedri/gavi/puig (or to make it even clearer Xavi or Iniesta) type of interior.
He will not need 0 time and 0 touches to orient himself in tight spaces close to the opposition's box, and play the perfect one-touch ball to split a defense.

In general, he is NOT the Masia-bread tiki-taka rondo hamster, and it's better to realize that sooner, rather than later

2) Then, to argue, that given the above, this player should not play for Barca, is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever read...
Why?

Because he has a unique WC skillset that is rarely found, and is on high demand given the nature of modern football.
Any top team would kill to have Frenkie in their ranks, while some BF 'coaches' look a gift horse in the mouth!
What is then his WC skillset? Since I wrote this recently:

Birdy said:

He is a WC box to box md that can stretch his play from the Libero position to the man who arrives in the box to finish chances, ON THE TOP of his WC ability to retain possession and avoid pressure.
His best skills are his vertical movements, his awareness of space, combined with his ability to make progressive runs with the ball

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This means that his best positions are the ones where he can makes the best use of his skill-set, and that's neither a Puig-type interior, not a Busi-type DM.

3) How this skill-set can be used?

You don't have to go back to his Ajax days to see that. There are already good examples at Barca:

Starting from the Libero position:
What do we see here?
He receives the ball, scans the space around him, and progresses the ball through channels with vertical runs NO MATTER WHAT. No matter how may players are around him, not matter how much they try to dispossess him.

Who else has that ability in our current squad?
Granny Pique ?
Slow AF Eric? Slow AF Lenglet?
Never-run-with-the-ball-in-my-career Busi?
Fast, but not technical enough with the ball, Araujo and Ming?
Or even: the I-just-turn-but-never-move-vertically Pedri and Gavi?

Yeah, you got it...
And but the way, I can think of only 3-4 players in all European teams atm that can actually do that starting from defense.

Starting from CM position:
Being on paper the Right interior of a mid-3, in reality he was in reality a shutter occupying the right half-space most game,
and making vertical runs WITHOUT the ball, wherever he was needed, the entire game
Popped in the box through those runs several times, 1 header scored, 1 shot hit the woodwork, while provided an assist by another excellent run attacking the empty space at the right of the box

Tons of examples the last 1 year, where he does the exact same thing, and his teammates cannot find him or he is unlucky in finishing.
At the Benfica debacle, he was by far MOTM until 33' when he moved back to defense: all the chances were created by his intelligence in locating the empty space at the back of Benfica's defense and attacking it through vertical off-the ball runs...

4) These 2 games are good examples of his different abilities in different areas of the pitch
The fact that he practically CANNOT be dispossessed at least until the final third, makes him the perfect asset for a team to carry the ball progressively through BOTH high-pressed and dangerous-to-lose-possession areas.
The fact that he is the one of the few in our squad to make off-the ball vertical runs in the box, makes him the perfect asset to surprise a defense and provide the extra-man that will break their defensive structure in the box.

Now, if one fails to see all that skill-set, or does not understand how a possession-based team can use such skill-set,
too bad for him...

PS: The fact that you can see much more from him under a WC coach is a given, and hope to see that soon after the summer.
But that should not be used as an excuse to mis-construe/underrate his abilities

Birdy, I don't think that those skills you mentioned as a CM help us.

That would work at Lucho's Barca where the midfielders passed the ball to attackers and they would end the action fast in a solo way.

Under other coaches, we played closer to TikiTaka where our idea is to play something like 8 vs 10 against the opponent's bus and to break the bus with passing.

In that type of attacking, Frenkie is again useless: he brings the ball to the opponent's final third and then he is useless against the attacking bus because he sucks in recycling possession, creative passes or shooting.

So, he is either:
1. a CB who drives the ball forward
2. a pivot in 4231
3. CM in Lucho's Barca with MSN upfront

In a team who moves slow and doesn't have fast, lethal or magical strikers, Frenkie is useless because he is killing the only thing left = midfield, possession, domination.

He is a player for chaotic, direct and counterattacking teams.

BBZ8800 said:

Birdy, I don't think that those skills you mentioned as a CM help us.

That would work at Lucho's Barca where the midfielders passed the ball to attackers and they would end the action fast in a solo way.

Under other coaches, we played closer to TikiTaka where our idea is to play something like 8 vs 10 against the opponent's bus and to break the bus with passing.

In that type of attacking, Frenkie is again useless: he brings the ball to the opponent's final third and then he is useless against the attacking bus because he sucks in recycling possession, creative passes or shooting.

So, he is either:
1. a CB who drives the ball forward
2. a pivot in 4231
3. CM in Lucho's Barca with MSN upfront

In a team who moves slow and doesn't have fast, lethal or magical strikers, Frenkie is useless because he is killing the only thing left = midfield, possession, domination.

He is a player for chaotic, direct and counterattacking teams.

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Probably can do a good role as a Libero CB

Messigician said:

Probably can do a good role as a Libero CB

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Or as a CMD, of Yaya Toure profile more than Busi profile, but still a CDM. Yaya Toure made quite a few runs, in fact penetrating with the ball was one of his trademarks, you don't have to eliminate all that if you play CDM, it's the manager's job to make sure that part of his game will be kept, just as it was when Yaya, as CDM, was dribbling 3-4 players and was scoring a world-class goal vs Bilbao in the Cup final. De Jong is certainly not a very good attacking midfielder, he simply doesn't produce enough offensively to occupy a higher midfield position.

I think Yaya Toure was a much superior offensive player to De Jong and he was still used as CDM for us. It's called a defensive midfielder, but in truth, when you have the ball, it's a pretty creative position, more like a deep-lying playmaker. We're not talking about destroyer types here like Essien or Gatusso.

So, for Barca, the Barca I want to see at least, he fits in as CB or CDM. Not higher.

BBZ8800 said:

Birdy, I don't think that those skills you mentioned as a CM help us.

That would work at Lucho's Barca where the midfielders passed the ball to attackers and they would end the action fast in a solo way.

Under other coaches, we played closer to TikiTaka where our idea is to play something like 8 vs 10 against the opponent's bus and to break the bus with passing.

In that type of attacking, Frenkie is again useless: he brings the ball to the opponent's final third and then he is useless against the attacking bus because he sucks in recycling possession, creative passes or shooting.

So, he is either:
1. a CB who drives the ball forward
2. a pivot in 4231
3. CM in Lucho's Barca with MSN upfront

In a team who moves slow and doesn't have fast, lethal or magical strikers, Frenkie is useless because he is killing the only thing left = midfield, possession, domination.

He is a player for chaotic, direct and counterattacking teams.

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I agree with this. But according to his own words, Frenkie sees himself as a deeper player, not as Koeman is using him now.

I think in my nature as a player, I want to receive the ball early in the play and to set up the play. I think that's more my style of play than waiting for the ball and receiving it up front, and touching the ball less. I think I feel more comfortable in the pivot position than high up front, but I can also play high up front. It doesn't matter for me so much but, if I had to choose, I would rather play as a double pivot than, for example, as a mediapunta.

That is from his 2020 interview with uefa.com.

He clearly doesn't see himself the way Koeman is using him now. The pivot position is Busi's, I think we can all agree with that.