khaled_a_d
Senior Member
If there is one thing Busquets still excels at, it is showing up for a pass. This photo doesn't dispute that, nor any amount of photos for that matter
21 - Frenkie de Jong
- Thread starter DonAK
- Start date
Bobo32
Senior Member
He is very often in the exact position of your pic, or in a similar position 20m up but with an opponent marking him, equally facing backwards, needing three touches to orientate himself after recieving.
In this case, Frenkie has no business to be there, he could be in the middle of the red square, facing forwards. Mingueza too could be facing forwards, 10m up and 15m out.
There are six players behind the press, at least two players too many. Busquets is waiting between two players to see what Pique does with the ball, he is in position to recieve a pass into the middle of the red square if it is possible, but the pic doesn't show the whole pitch so it is not a great pic to analyze. What can be said is Frenkie does not offer a good passing alternative there, a pass to him makes no progress, but actually the opposite. Maybe he is willingly trying to drag the opponent with him in order for Pique to find an attacker, as I was speculating in the earlier post, I don't like it.
serghei
Senior Member
Ok, so he's on the ball and took initiative. Now what? Busi doesn't care. Gavi is too far and keeping his position while our build-up is suffering. We have 4 options. 1 is decent at best, 2 is awesome but nobody shows up, 3 is a disaster since the guy is walking and flat-footed (plus he's triangulated by 3 Kyiv players), 4 is an even bigger disaster.
But no biggie. De Jong takes the good option and advances on the ball claiming gifted space since nobody presses him.
Note how all 3 midfielders are on the same pass line.
Bobo32
Senior Member
(ter Stegen), Pique, Mingueza and Frenkie are 4v1 against that left attacker, but by the way they position themselves might as well just be 1v1 or maybe 2v1.
The concept of "the free man" includes the goal keeper, but it's actually two free men if you include that the opponent rarely plays 1v1 against the CF.
The way Mingueza and Frenkie positions themselves in this pic, these two free men are irrelevant - then it is much harder to play tiki taki.
The concept of "the free man" includes the goal keeper, but it's actually two free men if you include that the opponent rarely plays 1v1 against the CF.
The way Mingueza and Frenkie positions themselves in this pic, these two free men are irrelevant - then it is much harder to play tiki taki.
serghei
Senior Member
Now he's running into problems because nobody is showing in the hole for the best pass option available, and he's running into traffic. 2 Kyiv players are gonna challenge him if he keeps staying on the ball. There's a decent option wide for Minguez, but there's a reason why the other teams leave defensive fullbacks open. They are not dangerous and you can block them just with one player. If it was Dembele there, he would not be allowed to stand in space.
Bobo32
Senior Member
Ok, so he's on the ball and took initiative. Now what? Busi doesn't care. Gavi is too far and keeping his position while our build-up is suffering. We have 4 options. 1 is decent at best, 2 is awesome but nobody shows up, 3 is a disaster since the guy is walking and flat-footed (plus he's triangulated by 3 Kyiv players), 4 is an even bigger disaster.
But no biggie. De Jong takes the good option and advances on the ball claiming gifted space since nobody presses him.
Note how all 3 midfielders are on the same pass line.
Frenkie should never get the ball in this case. He should be in 2 from the start, or the pass should go to someone further upfield. He is superfluos here, and he should not get into that position whether he plays CDM or CM. It could just as well be Pique having the ball there, he is the one out of position. If he was in Busquets position, then Busquets should be in 2, but Busquets can't sprint towards 2 in this scenario, if that's what you mean?
That the 3 are in a line is very temporary there.
Frenkie, Mingueza and Dest are still 3v1 versus the left forward, Dest could take a step in towards 2, releasing Mingueza, pretty easily they could be 2v1 against the LB. Depends a lot on Frenkies vision and decision there.
Bobo32
Senior Member
Now he's running into problems because nobody is showing in the hole for the best pass option available, and he's running into traffic. 2 Kyiv players are gonna challenge him if he keeps staying on the ball. There's a decent option wide for Minguez, but there's a reason why the other teams leave defensive fullbacks open. They are not dangerous and you can block them just with one player. If it was Dembele there, he would not be allowed to stand in space.
Still an advantageous position, Kyiv didn't position themselves well.
It should still rather be Pique on the ball, with Frenkie somewhere else (or Frenkie as a CB in the same position) but the straight pass is very open towards Dest, and if not, Mingueza is very open on the outside too.
Bobo32
Senior Member
Also, if he doesn't sprint and lose his vision, Busquets is very ready to play on the third man (Dest in this case) here with a simple sideways pass from Frenkie. Busquets is always available for these, and very often surprises you in finding Gavi on one touch in this case if the opponent CDM takes his step too early, for example.
I guess Frenkie took another touch here, didn't see the opportunities, and then passed back to Pique (who should've had the ball all along), or he played an easy pass to an isolated Mingueza, with the wrong timing.
I guess Frenkie took another touch here, didn't see the opportunities, and then passed back to Pique (who should've had the ball all along), or he played an easy pass to an isolated Mingueza, with the wrong timing.
serghei
Senior Member
Pique doesn't have the speed to drive with the ball forward quickly when in space. He's sluggish, old, takes a lot of time to move. You need a better passer to orchestrate attacks from deep. That's why Pep had Busi drop often and collect the ball from the back 2. If it was so easy to organize attacks, he'd have Pique do it back then too, and that was peak Pique not this clown version.
Stop saying Pique should pass this, do that
. He should keep his spot and drift away as little as possible. He's too slow even when he has positional advantage over his opponent, god forbid him being drawn out of his position.In general, the DM (better called deep-lying playmaker in this case, as he's on the ball) drops to orchestrate attacks because he has better vision, better strength, better speed, better technique, and better passing skills than a 34 year old Pique.
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Windhook
Well-known member
The Dynamo Kyiv game was full of inaccurate passes by the midfield, especially in the first half. Lack of focus, no matter how important it was to win that game. I wouldn't delve much into tactical details, it's still early days and there is this certain atmosphere at the club that Koeman is heading for the exit door any game now. Don't want to compare it to Rafa Benitez's Real Madrid, but unproven Zidane took charge and won CL with the same squad that lost 0-4 at Bernabeu against Barca.
Bobo32
Senior Member
Pique doesn't have the speed to drive with the ball forward quickly when in space. He's sluggish, old, takes a lot of time to move. You need a better passer to orchestrate attacks from deep. That's why Pep had Busi drop often and collect the ball from the back 2. If it was so easy to organize attacks, he'd have Pique do it back then too, and that was peak Pique not this clown version.
Stop saying Pique should pass this, do that
In general, the DM (better called deep-lying playmaker in this case, as he's on the ball) drops to orchestrate attacks because he has better vision, better strength, better speed, better technique, and better passing skills than a 34 year old Pique.
If Pique can't pass a simple straight pass, he shouldn't be on the pitch. He could get the ball from your first picture to your last picture just as fast as Frenkie did or faster.
What did Frenkie do with the ball in this case? Was I correct?
serghei
Senior Member
about the faster part. Pique and speed.Pique is in line with Lenglet almost. He is where he is supposed to be. You always want to maintain the 2 vs 1 at the back. Besides, we're talking about an extremely slow player. No way he should be so adventurous to drive with the ball forward so far out.
High line with Pique and Lenglet.
That would be Christmas coming early for Kyiv. One break and it's a shot on target for Kyiv, so a goal.
serghei
Senior Member
Btw, there's a whole lot of images with Busi dropping deep collecting the ball from the CBs, in the same way as Frenkie. It's the same thing. The idea was to minimize the risk that the CBs would take.
I don't disagree in theory that CBs should eat as much space as possible and push up until near the halfway line if not pressed, but this would automatically mean you play a high line. I'm all for that, but Pique is actually the last guy you want in a high line. So is Lenglet. And Koeman is the wrong manager to do it.
I think you grossly overestimate how slow these veterans are. Even that phrase that Pique would advance with the ball faster than De Jong is hilarious. That's one of De Jong's best attributes, conducting the ball fast and finding pockets of space to carry it forward through.
This is the reason why 3-4-3 looked very good with De Jong as a libero, and totally crap with Pique there. He's a lot quicker with and without the ball. That system went to shit when Pique got back and De Jong was moved up into midfield.
I don't disagree in theory that CBs should eat as much space as possible and push up until near the halfway line if not pressed, but this would automatically mean you play a high line. I'm all for that, but Pique is actually the last guy you want in a high line. So is Lenglet. And Koeman is the wrong manager to do it.
I think you grossly overestimate how slow these veterans are. Even that phrase that Pique would advance with the ball faster than De Jong is hilarious
. That's one of De Jong's best attributes, conducting the ball fast and finding pockets of space to carry it forward through.This is the reason why 3-4-3 looked very good with De Jong as a libero, and totally crap with Pique there. He's a lot quicker with and without the ball. That system went to shit when Pique got back and De Jong was moved up into midfield.
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Bobo32
Senior Member
Pique is in line with Lenglet almost. He is where he is supposed to be. You always want to maintain the 2 vs 1 at the back. Besides, we're talking about an extremely slow player. No way he should be so adventurous to drive with the ball forward so far out.
High line with Pique and Lenglet.
Two lols but no answer to my question.
What to make about your talk about high line. It's usually not relevant to buildup. Barcelona still play with a high line under Koeman.
If Barcelona are so pussy that they cannot let their defender build up play, then I do not think they should continue playing football. Maybe they should crochet instead. Frenkie is superfluos in these pics, useless. Or he makes Pique useless.
Maybe it is true when you have someone with a pass success rate of 71% and a similar recieving rate up front, you need your midfielders to drop deep to do the buildup instead of showing themselves centrally, so that the defenders can just wait and concentrate 100% on the inevitable counter... Not what I am used to!
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