21 - Frenkie de Jong

Really should be looking to putting him at CDM permanently and phase Busquets out. With Koeman though don't have much hope. Hopefully we somehow manage to get Ten Hag in the summer, cause I think he would be the one to finally cast Busquets aside, because he likes his midfielders fast, or at least mobile. Even with the occasional forward run and goal it's clear Frenkie isn't comfortable attacking, but he's still a key player for us, and what better way to use him than in the key position in our formation, linking defense and attack. Play Gavi on the right and Pedri on the left, or you know just FUCKING give Riqui a chance too!

He's too mobile for a CDM with very good dribbling

He needs to just improve in final third

gregorrin10 said:

Really should be looking to putting him at CDM permanently and phase Busquets out. With Koeman though don't have much hope. Hopefully we somehow manage to get Ten Hag in the summer, cause I think he would be the one to finally cast Busquets aside, because he likes his midfielders fast, or at least mobile. Even with the occasional forward run and goal it's clear Frenkie isn't comfortable attacking, but he's still a key player for us, and what better way to use him than in the key position in our formation, linking defense and attack. Play Gavi on the right and Pedri on the left, or you know just FUCKING give Riqui a chance too!

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Playing Frenkie as a pivot means bringing the ball from deep but in general, we play with a man down in midfield.

He dies when he crosses the half line.

His possession contribution is on the level of Rafa Marquez as a pivot in 2004/05.
Wins the ball-pass it to someone else-and don't count on me anymore.

Arthur De Jong.
(Arthur with pace and stamina)

Except that Arthur was at least good in recycling possession.

Frenkie can play only as a CB to bring the ball from the back or as a pivot in 4231 where the other pivot will cover for him and 4 other midfielders will take care of possession and creation.

In 433, wherever he plays in midfield, we will get tons of running and atrocious possession and results.
Oh wait, this is exactly what is happening since he is a midfielder.

He can play even as an interior in Rakitic's mold (except better in link-up and with not as much scoring ability, so less box to box and more DM-CM type) but he needs a proper manager to give him smarter instructions. If even that doesn't make his performances go up a notch or two, selling him while we can for big bucks is not a bad option.

serghei said:

He can play even as an interior in Rakitic's mold (except better in link-up and with not as much scoring ability, so less box to box and more DM-CM type) but he needs a proper manager to give him smarter instructions. If even that doesn't make his performances go up a notch or two, selling him while we can for big bucks is not a bad option.

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It's hard fot me to describe.
When I talk about Frenkie being bad in possession:
1. he moves too much, even though that sounds weird.
But he moves in a chaotic way and he is not there where you expect it.

Rakitic moved too little for Barca's standards, but at least you knew that he will be on his position.
So, if you passed the ball towards his default position, he was there.
Even though, after that pass to him, he lacked a movement off the ball once he released the ball.

On the other hand, Frenkie runs all the time.
Which is good on one hand, but is bad in terms that he is always on a different position.

The easiest comparison would be, imagine if Xavi-Iniesta-Busi needed to play blindfold.
Xavi would know even without looking where Busi is.
Busi would always know where is Xavi.

Now, imagine the same situation with Frenkie.
When Busi has the ball (blindfold), he has no clue where is Frenkie.
Sometimes he stays on his RCM position, sometimes he wanders to a wing position, sometimes he wanders to a CB-pivot position, sometimes he wanders into the box.

So, for example, in 433 with Xavi-Iniesta-Busi, you had 3 clear midfielders who interchanged positions, but who were always "on the right position" positionally wise and open for receiving passes.
On the other hand, with Frenkie in midfield, you get 423 formation and Frenkie is everywhere, on a CB, pivot, RCM, LCM, RW, false 9.
On one hand, he is everywhere.
On the other hand, he is nowhere when you need him to keep possession and dominate the other team.

Again, I don't think that it is a coincidence that we declined a lot in midfield since he became a starter.
We gained a lot of headless chicken running for 90 minutes, but gained very little smart movement, smart possession, smart defending or anything creative from him.

A weird, weird player.
When you look at him, he looks like a world class, but when you dig deeper, he does almost nothing except running around aimlessly for 90 minutes.

De Jong isn't benefited from team's tactic or stuff like that.

vegitot said:

De Jong isn't benefited from team's tactic or stuff like that.

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It's painfully obvious when you compare him to his Ajax days. He was much more of a deeper Xavi than this box to box version. The challenge for him is to play a bit further up the pitch than in his Ajax days, but keep the style. Hard to say whether he will succeed in that, but I would be optimistic.

Generally I don't blame Koeman or anyone for this, it's just the nature of our current team. We need (late) runners into the box more than a 100 passes per game midfielder. Frenkie is cursed with being good at that if you will, probably the best in our team at the moment.

I just don't think he's that good further up the pitch, none of his natural extinct as a footballer suits him there bar making the actual run itself into the box. He has immense ability to progress the ball up the pitch from deeper positions.

The next coach will be crucial for both Barca and De Jong because otherwise, we've spent three years turning into a jack-of-all-trades player when we've failed to utilize him and develop him to his strengths.

BBZ8800 said:

It's hard fot me to describe.
When I talk about Frenkie being bad in possession:
1. he moves too much, even though that sounds weird.
But he moves in a chaotic way and he is not there where you expect it.

Rakitic moved too little for Barca's standards, but at least you knew that he will be on his position.
So, if you passed the ball towards his default position, he was there.
Even though, after that pass to him, he lacked a movement off the ball once he released the ball.

On the other hand, Frenkie runs all the time.
Which is good on one hand, but is bad in terms that he is always on a different position.

The easiest comparison would be, imagine if Xavi-Iniesta-Busi needed to play blindfold.
Xavi would know even without looking where Busi is.
Busi would always know where is Xavi.

Now, imagine the same situation with Frenkie.
When Busi has the ball (blindfold), he has no clue where is Frenkie.
Sometimes he stays on his RCM position, sometimes he wanders to a wing position, sometimes he wanders to a CB-pivot position, sometimes he wanders into the box.

So, for example, in 433 with Xavi-Iniesta-Busi, you had 3 clear midfielders who interchanged positions, but who were always "on the right position" positionally wise and open for receiving passes.
On the other hand, with Frenkie in midfield, you get 423 formation and Frenkie is everywhere, on a CB, pivot, RCM, LCM, RW, false 9.
On one hand, he is everywhere.
On the other hand, he is nowhere when you need him to keep possession and dominate the other team.

Again, I don't think that it is a coincidence that we declined a lot in midfield since he became a starter.
We gained a lot of headless chicken running for 90 minutes, but gained very little smart movement, smart possession, smart defending or anything creative from him.

A weird, weird player.
When you look at him, he looks like a world class, but when you dig deeper, he does almost nothing except running around aimlessly for 90 minutes.

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I am not happy with him either, but the difference is that I don't know how much of that is his inability to adjust and how much is Koeman being clueless. We need to see him under Xavi / Ten Hag or someone that is tactically more astute than Koeman.

Rakitic was easier to integrate than De Jong, because his qualities in the first 2-3 seasons at least were very clear and straightforward. Besides, Rakitic had a natural inclination to attack from his Schalke, Sevilla days where he played more as a winger or a kind of no10.

We need to finally land a top manager and then we can be more critical and selective of our players. Then we can say, ok this guy for sure has it, this guy maybe not, this player is good squad-material but not quite first 11, this player is a good candidate for a big-money sale, etc. Right now, there's visible potential, but we don't know how that will fit in the new team, because we're lacking the guy to put the pieces together.

I think this team is about 2 years from being very competitive, provided that we do get a top manager, and not another underwhelming one.

I am very tired of the word 'clueless'. Koeman doesn't seem to know what he's doing though it is true, and he doesn't seem to be the instructor kind of manager, who can develop good habits in players. But the responsibility for Frenkie de Jongs performances is 100% Frenkie de Jongs. He is 24 now I think, and he could use some help in how to position himself and use his energy, but he should be able to play much better even without that help. He seems though to be much less (not at all?) self-critical now than when he arrived.

I think BBZ is pretty much on point in his critique here, but I still think Frenkie is a very talented player that could do a lot from many different positions, but maybe the last one is the central midfield of Barcelona.

Bobo32 said:

I am very tired of the word 'clueless'. Koeman doesn't seem to know what he's doing though it is true, and he doesn't seem to be the instructor kind of manager, who can develop good habits in players. But the responsibility for Frenkie de Jongs performances is 100% Frenkie de Jongs. He is 24 now I think, and he could use some help in how to position himself and use his energy, but he should be able to play much better even without that help. He seems though to be much less (not at all?) self-critical now than when he arrived.

I think BBZ is pretty much on point in his critique here, but I still think Frenkie is a very talented player that could do a lot from many different positions, but maybe the last one is the central midfield of Barcelona.

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That's bullshit, if the manager asks you to do some things which don't suit your game, you still do them because he's the boss. If players are 100% responsible for the way they perform then guys like Guardiola, Klopp etc. wouldn't be so important in football. Truth is better manager get more out of players, crappier managers don't because they are not as good.

De Jong is used in a way which maximizes his weaker points. He's not an offensive player. He has 5 goals in 75 league games at Barcelona ffs. Why is this guy playing so advanced with this abysmal output is a mystery to all but Koeman. To play like that and make so many runs forward every game and to have such abysmal numbers, it's pretty obvious that his place is not in the offense.

serghei said:

That's bullshit, if the manager asks you to do some things which don't suit your game, you still do them because he's the boss. If players are 100% responsible for the way they perform then guys like Guardiola, Klopp etc. wouldn't be so important in football. Truth is better manager get more out of players, crappier managers don't because they are not as good.

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It's not bullshit, and I think you misread my post.
To rewrite: yes Frenkie will be better under a different manager, in a different team, in a different position. But he is playing a lot in his preffered position in his preferred team under a manager he supports, whom he had before, and who trusts him blindly. Yes he is responsible for his actions on the pitch. Every player is. Players suffer under bad instructions, or simply playing in bad systems, Frenkie does too, but his problems doesn't look as if they come from Koeman telling him to do the wrong things, he is just not able to handle the ball and the positioning well enough a lot of the time. It's on him.

Guardiola would help him with the basics, sure. A year or two with Pep would make FdJ play better in this Koeman lead Barcelona. But he wouldn't arrive in City and play great immediately either probably, he lacks stuff and he needs to work on it. He can't blame others for not teaching him.

Bobo32 said:

It's not bullshit, and I think you misread my post.
To rewrite: yes Frenkie will be better under a different manager, in a different team, in a different position. But he is playing a lot in his preffered position in his preferred team under a manager he supports, whom he had before, and who trusts him blindly. Yes he is responsible for his actions on the pitch. Every player is. Players suffer under bad instructions, or simply playing in bad systems, Frenkie does too, but his problems doesn't look as if they come from Koeman telling him to do the wrong things, he is just not able to handle the ball and the positioning well enough a lot of the time. It's on him.

Guardiola would help him with the basics, sure. A year or two with Pep would make FdJ play better in this Koeman lead Barcelona. But he wouldn't arrive in City and play great immediately either probably, he lacks stuff and he needs to work on it. He can't blame others for not teaching him.

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How is he playing a lot in his preferred position? At Ajax when we bought him he was played in a different position. The closest position for that one at Barca is Busquets. And he's rarely been used there.

“I think in my nature as a player, I want to receive the ball early in the play and to set up the play,” the midfielder told UEFA.com. “I think that’s more my style of play than waiting for the ball and receiving it upfront, and touching the ball less,” he said.

Koeman is basically using him wrong. He's not receiving the ball early and setting up the play, Busquets is. He's running up front and attacking the box more often than not. He did not play that way at Ajax.

Absolutely Koeman is instructing him to make many forward runs. It looks obvious to me. What we need to do is hire a manager who wants to dominate the midfield, than one that over-plays through fullbacks-winger pairs (exactly the type of progression Guardiola hated btw if you remember Alves saying it) and asks midfielders to make runs based on fullback and winger actions.

For example, look when actions are built wide with Dest, Depay, Fati, Alba. These wide players get to touch the most actions and most balls, and Frankie's role is not to show up for pass inside (that happens very rarely), but to make runs in the box. So, when the ball is progressing in wider areas, you can even see De Jong that instead of showing for pass to allow us to build actions centrally, he's actually trying to get his ass in the box as fast as possible.

Koeman doesn't know and/or doesn't care to provide a working passing structure through central areas. He takes the wide lanes which are customarily freer (as usual, the middle of the pitch is more crowded, so you need smarter movement and more precise combinations to get through there), and smashes balls in the box to De Jong (both of them), or even Pique.

serghei said:

How is he playing a lot in his preferred position? At Ajax when we bought him he was played in a different position. The closest position for that one at Barca is Busquets. And he's rarely been used there.

?I think in my nature as a player, I want to receive the ball early in the play and to set up the play,? the midfielder told UEFA.com. ?I think that?s more my style of play than waiting for the ball and receiving it upfront, and touching the ball less,? he said.

Koeman is basically using him wrong. He's not receiving the ball early and setting up the play, Busquets is. He's running up front and attacking the box more often than not. He did not play that way at Ajax.

Absolutely Koeman is instructing him to make many forward runs. It looks obvious to me. What we need to do is hire a manager who wants to dominate the midfield, than one that over-plays through fullbacks-winger pairs (exactly the type of progression Guardiola hated btw if you remember Alves saying it) and asks midfielders to make runs based on fullback and winger actions.

For example, look when actions are built wide with Dest, Depay, Fati, Alba. These wide players get to touch the most actions and most balls, and Frankie's role is not to show up for pass inside (that happens very rarely), but to make runs in the box. So, when the ball is progressing in wider areas, you can even see De Jong that instead of showing for pass to allow us to build actions centrally, he's actually trying to get his ass in the box as fast as possible.

Koeman doesn't know and/or doesn't care to provide a working passing structure through central areas. He takes the wide lanes which are customarily freer (as usual, the middle of the pitch is more crowded, so you need smarter movement and more precise combinations to get through there), and smashes balls in the box to De Jong (both of them), or even Pique.

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Maybe. He was played in a double pivot the first months, and sometimes later too, though, and also in most of the 3ATB systems. I think that has similarities to how he played at Ajax and in the NT.
And he is getting deep to get the ball regardless, even in a 4-3-3. It seems Koeman enjoys that he drags the opponents midfield forward, so that the ball can get to the forwards (directly or through the full backs) with more space theoretically and then back to midfielders facing forwards. That's what the "plan" has looked like a lot. I don't like it at all either, and have moaned a lot about that so called U-shape that the team has started to play for the first time since Rijkaard since Koeman arrived.

I think Frenkies forward runs are pretty strong, and it's a part of his game that probably should be used, even if he plays CB. Maybe Koeman instructs him to make them, and also to drop deep to get the ball, but it's his responsibility to know the timing for it. I think Pedri has the same tendency, but Puig does not and neither does Gavi, they are better positioned, and makes it possible to play through the middle too. I doubt Koemans instruction differ for Gavi or Puig, and he is also very satisfied with Gavis position it seems like.

The times that Frenkie played CDM when Busquets was out, under Koeman and before Koeman, he was terrible in my opinion. Even more out of place than as a CM, and very inefficient. I agree with his quote though, and that's why I think he should be given the chance as a CB full time. He needs more time on the ball.

edit: sorry for an unstructured answer. I want to clarify that I think it's also Frenkies and Pedris preffered positioning that makes it impossible to go through the middle. Busquets, Pique and Garcia looks for these passes all the time. I don't think it's on instruction but on the midfielders timing and energy management. Also, Frenkie is inefficient with the ball in these tight spaces. He often finds ONE way out, but he rarely finds the best way out, to progress the ball.

Bobo32 said:

Maybe. He was played in a double pivot the first months, and sometimes later too, though, and also in most of the 3ATB systems. I think that has similarities to how he played at Ajax and in the NT.
And he is getting deep to get the ball regardless, even in a 4-3-3. It seems Koeman enjoys that he drags the opponents midfield forward, so that the ball can get to the forwards (directly or through the full backs) with more space theoretically and then back to midfielders facing forwards. That's what the "plan" has looked like a lot. I don't like it at all either, and have moaned a lot about that so called U-shape that the team has started to play for the first time since Rijkaard since Koeman arrived.

I think Frenkies forward runs are pretty strong, and it's a part of his game that probably should be used, even if he plays CB. Maybe Koeman instructs him to make them, and also to drop deep to get the ball, but it's his responsibility to know the timing for it. I think Pedri has the same tendency, but Puig does not and neither does Gavi, they are better positioned, and makes it possible to play through the middle too. I doubt Koemans instruction differ for Gavi or Puig, and he is also very satisfied with Gavis position it seems like.

The times that Frenkie played CDM when Busquets was out, under Koeman and before Koeman, he was terrible in my opinion. Even more out of place than as a CM, and very inefficient. I agree with his quote though, and that's why I think he should be given the chance as a CB full time. He needs more time on the ball.

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He's getting deep to get the ball SOMETIMES, not very often, and when he does it, this move is not in any way timed with the movement of others around him. It's pretty shit and useless to drop deep, when others don't adjust. It only widens the gap between players.

It's all on Koeman, the movement of players is chaotic and unregulated. You can see we're lacking the hand of a proper manager to make all these isolated individual movements part of something more drilled and rehearsed. The same thing we're seeing for Spain for example under Lucho. With much of the same players nearly.

Let's take one deep build action where he does actually come down to initiate build-up from deep, although usually that is done by Busi 8 times out of 10.



First, this is not even a proper 4-3-3 shape. You're missing another midfielder to complete the trio. The other midfielder is probably somewhere up not even engaging in the build-up. This is a common flaw at Koeman. The midfielders don't really provide passing options except one at a time. Sometimes not even that.

So, here De Jong receives the ball. Look who will offer a pass option from the guys near him. Normally, Busi should be acting CM now. De Jong has taken over his deep build-up role of initiating a positional attack, he should offer the pass option. Or Gavi, the other midfielder who at this point has no role at all. Or the winger, or even the fullback although that would be too risky to just leave his position and go inside that much.

Busquets will show absolutely no intention of ever showing up for a pass in the hole. He will just watch and wait for De Jong to get into a dead position, recycle the ball so he can appear in that position after 20-30 seconds.