21 - Frenkie de Jong

Fati_Future_BallonDor

Well-known member
So was Rakitic but he didn't make a career out of being perma injured (KDB) , escaping red card merchant (Casemiro) or faking injuries Pep's enemy Bastian

raki had one worldclass season and one good season at barca, casemiro has been top for every 3 cl titles, kdb has been important for several pl titles, bastian is difficult case, was surely top for the treble season and wc 2014.
 

Laplacian

Senior Member
If you think Rakitic was better than the Bastian who was a key player for Bayern 2013 treble and Germany WC 2014...you have lost your marbles.

Kante has won EPL with Leicester, EPL and CL with Chelsea, and WC with France. Key player in all those sides.

Pogba and Fabregas are on a similar level to Rakitic. I didn't say they were better.

Sorry for the second quote but it needs to be said that "peak Fabregas" was one of the best playmakers in the world alongside guys like Ozil and Xavi. The guy had several seasons where he hit about 10+ assists. In his latter Arsenal years I'm pretty sure he hit the 18 assists mark. Hit about 16 in Chelsea too. And he was a deep lying playmaker, not an attacking midfielder like Ozil or Kdb. Sorry but the fact that this guy is not commonly rated higher than Rakitic, especially here, is a disgrace. Far more talented than Rakitic.

/endRant.
 

fergus90

Senior Member
Sorry for the second quote but it needs to be said that "peak Fabregas" was one of the best playmakers in the world alongside guys like Ozil and Xavi. The guy had several seasons where he hit about 10+ assists. In his latter Arsenal years I'm pretty sure he hit the 18 assists mark. Hit about 16 in Chelsea too. And he was a deep lying playmaker, not an attacking midfielder like Ozil or Kdb. Sorry but the fact that this guy is not commonly rated higher than Rakitic, especially here, is a disgrace. Far more talented than Rakitic.

/endRant.

I'm pretty sure the majority of the football world outside of the Barcelona bubble realises Fabregas was levels ahead of Rakitic at his peak. The guy was unbelievable for Arsenal.
 

BBZ8800

Senior Member
Rakitic in 2015 was playing at a better level than current De Jong, but you can't estimate how well De Jong would do in a near-perfect team at the time. The difference between Barca during Rakitic's peak and current Barca is big.

If you'd have De Jong at Bayern or even Manchester City, IMO he'd be awesome.

To me, Frenkie is more eye pleasing player than Rakitic.
So was Arthur, but it doesn't tell much.

Frenkie has some flair and elegance while running.
He stands straight, he looks "easy" while running (not heavy, tired or overweight) and his first touch and his trademark dribble-press resistance is good.
So, when watching him, he creates that "wow" effect in spectators.

On the other hand, Rakitic is more heavy, slower, his hips are slower, he seems more tired, his running is nowhere near that elegant, his first touch is sometimes meh.
So, on the eye test, Frenkie is miles superior player.

But when you dig deeper, Frenkie really isn't contributing too much.
He is not doing anything in attack in terms of attacking movement and scoring.
He is not doing much in terms of creativity in the final third.
He is not doing much in possession since he doesn't seem like a classic TikiTaka guy.
He is not doing much in defense except endless running.

So, in terms of possession, neither Rakitic or Frenkie are typical Barca DNA players who fit our fast-passing style and movement.
In terms of attacking, Rakitic was way better.
In terms of creativity, Rakitic was better.
In terms of defending, for me Rakitic is way better.
Frenkie is running way more and covering more space in defense, but a lot of his defensive running is somewhat "headless chicken" running around with vacating his position, leaving tons of space behind his back, making soft tackles and being meh in the air.
On the other hand, Rakitic was running less, but he was holding his defensive position way better and was way better in reading the game, intercepting passes and just marking the opponents and forcing them to pass the ball to "someone else".

In only one match, over 90 minutes in a high stake match vs Argentina on a WC 2018, Rakitic managed to offer:
1. free kick hit the post
2. scored a goal
3. played 3-4 longball passes to his opponents
4. kept his position well and marked Messi and Argentinians well
5. tackled Messi from behind and prevented a clear goal and a simple tap-in

I would always be calmer in defense with a Rakitic as a pivot than with Frenkie's headless chicken running.
Someone will now reply: your boy Rakitic played awesome at Anfield.

Well, fine.
But when we switched Rakitic with Frenkie, we jumped from 4 goals conceded to 8 goals conceded (Bayern).
But some will say: Anfield was Rakitic's fualt while a poor guy Frenkie wasn't guilty for anything in 2:8 defeat.
Well, coincidence or not, but since Frenkie started to be a starter, we are losing all CL ties against big teams and we can't win any single La Liga match against any bigger opponent.
It might be that the team is horrible, OR Frenkie is one of the reasons why the team is chaotic possession and defensive wise.

Anyway, Frenkie won't play this many longballs over the whole season, because he just doesn't possess vision for anything in the attacking third (plus, his defending is really chaotic):
 

Fati_Future_BallonDor

Well-known member
Sorry for the second quote but it needs to be said that "peak Fabregas" was one of the best playmakers in the world alongside guys like Ozil and Xavi. The guy had several seasons where he hit about 10+ assists. In his latter Arsenal years I'm pretty sure he hit the 18 assists mark. Hit about 16 in Chelsea too. And he was a deep lying playmaker, not an attacking midfielder like Ozil or Kdb. Sorry but the fact that this guy is not commonly rated higher than Rakitic, especially here, is a disgrace. Far more talented than Rakitic.

/endRant.

Completely right. Arsenal Fabre was another level, its a pity that he wasnt able to find that level at barca even though he was still good.
 

BBZ8800

Senior Member
Also, regarding Frenkie, people often mention Ajax vs Real and Juve.
I watched those videos now.
Maybe you guys are overrating those matches.

Now, when we watched Frenkie longer in our team, look at that match vs Real at Bernabeu:
-- he plays as a CB-pivot hybrid
-- Real are pressuring like crazy because they are losing, and then Frenkie is having a field day, playing the same as Arthur: he is awesome in avoiding pressure in his own half. But once when he crosses a half-line of a field, he freezes
-- look at his best match in his career, vs Real, he is doing absolutely nothing in the opponent's half
And now, someone might say: but he is awesome in avoiding press.
Fine, but what about 80% of La Liga matches where the opponents are bad and they can't pressure us? What is Frenkie's purpose then? He is only a slightly better than Arthur in that case: he is good in press resistance but if there is no pressure, he is useless.
Now, watch his video vs Real and you will see the same guy from Barca. Except that he was awesome in press resistance and dribbling in his own half.
More or less that is all what he was doing on that match and yet we hailed him as the future best midfielder in the world.
So, do we really need a better system for Frenkie to shine or you guys are just seeing way too much in him, and majority of skills just aren't there? (Possession, vision, forward passes, shooting, defending):

He really looks like Arthur with slightly better skills, more pace and more stamina.
 

serghei

Senior Member
[MENTION=16942]BBZ8800[/MENTION], I don't think he's overrated, he's having his fair share of criticism I'd say. Also, I agree with you that he's not offering much offensively, which is why we should be looking to sign a player like 2015 Rakitic. A real box-to-box midfielder with good shooting ability and more toughness.

This is why I'd use him as a DM. Totally not convinced by his instincts when he attacks. Looking at the other midfielders in the team, he's either a DM under a better manager, or we should cash in on him.

But if you look beyond the attacking part (not all midfielders should have important offensive roles btw), and the fact that he just runs too much in too many areas (a problem a good manager would fix right away IMO), he's a top player if used well.
 
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Birdy

Senior Member
Also, regarding Frenkie, people often mention Ajax vs Real and Juve.
I watched those videos now.
Maybe you guys are overrating those matches.

Now, when we watched Frenkie longer in our team, look at that match vs Real at Bernabeu:
-- he plays as a CB-pivot hybrid
-- Real are pressuring like crazy because they are losing, and then Frenkie is having a field day, playing the same as Arthur: he is awesome in avoiding pressure in his own half. But once when he crosses a half-line of a field, he freezes
-- look at his best match in his career, vs Real, he is doing absolutely nothing in the opponent's half
And now, someone might say: but he is awesome in avoiding press.
Fine, but what about 80% of La Liga matches where the opponents are bad and they can't pressure us? What is Frenkie's purpose then? He is only a slightly better than Arthur in that case: he is good in press resistance but if there is no pressure, he is useless.
Now, watch his video vs Real and you will see the same guy from Barca. Except that he was awesome in press resistance and dribbling in his own half.
More or less that is all what he was doing on that match and yet we hailed him as the future best midfielder in the world.
So, do we really need a better system for Frenkie to shine or you guys are just seeing way too much in him, and majority of skills just aren't there? (Possession, vision, forward passes, shooting, defending):

He really looks like Arthur with slightly better skills, more pace and more stamina.

The demandings here for Frenkie are getting pretty ridiculous IMO
Frenkie is demanded more or less to be a semi-god on pitch:
- To pass as quickly and as accurately as prime Busi across the pitch to spread play
- To defend as good as a central def. and a prime Kante combined
- To run endlessly all over the pitch
- To glide smoothly dribbling all the opposition players like prime Messi
- To circulate the ball effortlessly in tight spaces like prime Iniesta and prime Xavi
- To provide the killer-pass in the final 3rd
- To score himself a lot of goals and get double digits every season
- To score by shooting outside of the box

Ok, all that demandings are ridiculous

Let's start by recognizing what type of player Frenkie is:
He is NOT a Busi-type pivot
He is NOT a Kante-type destroyer
He is NOT an Iniesta-type interior
He is NOT an outside the box shooter/scorer

What is he then?
He is a WC box to box md that can stretch his play from the Libero position in D to the man who arrives in the box to finish chances
ON THE TOP of his WC ability to retain possession and avoid pressure.
His best position is obviously not any position that involves just recycling possession or dictating the play from deep or finding killer-passes close to the box
His best skills are his vertical movements, his awareness of space, combined with his ability to make progressive runs with the ball
Any top team would kill to have his skill-set and we are here discussing whether he offers enough..
That's the effect of the distorted perception of the team

PS: BBZ,
watch the video again..
He is great in that game. Not only avoiding pressure, but always starting the attack correctly by running in the correct chanel after every evasion of an opponent.
Plus, all the interceptions, all the counter-pressing, all the popping-up at the right place to stop a counter

Maybe not for people who are expecting to see a Busi a Xavi or an Iniesta
 

vegitot

Senior Member
If you think Rakitic was better than the Bastian who was a key player for Bayern 2013 treble and Germany WC 2014...you have lost your marbles.

Kante has won EPL with Leicester, EPL and CL with Chelsea, and WC with France. Key player in all those sides.

Pogba and Fabregas are on a similar level to Rakitic. I didn't say they were better.

Same can apply to Rakitic. Key player for his clubs and country.
 

vegitot

Senior Member
Sorry for the second quote but it needs to be said that "peak Fabregas" was one of the best playmakers in the world alongside guys like Ozil and Xavi. The guy had several seasons where he hit about 10+ assists. In his latter Arsenal years I'm pretty sure he hit the 18 assists mark. Hit about 16 in Chelsea too. And he was a deep lying playmaker, not an attacking midfielder like Ozil or Kdb. Sorry but the fact that this guy is not commonly rated higher than Rakitic, especially here, is a disgrace. Far more talented than Rakitic.

/endRant.

Cassano is probably the best Italian player ever, if you talk about talent.

Cesc only had two season with Arsenal, a forgetable period with Barca. At Chelsea he was insanely good in the first half of season then disappeared for the second half, got a nick name half of season player.

Cesc is more talented doen't mean he is a better player overall. Or else Ronaldo is not even top 20 player in history.
 

vegitot

Senior Member
He was like the 8th most important player in our treble winning squad (after MSN, Iniesta, Busquets, Alves, Pique) and second to Modric at Croatia.

Take him off then the team wouldn't achieve anything above. Bastian or Kante didn't win anything by themself either.

And Rakitic was better than Ini or Busi through out 2014/15 season.
 

Joan

Well-known member
Why are you comparing FDJ to a 30 year old Rakitic? World cup rakitic is one of the best mids of all time and PSG or United would have bid over 60m for him but he ONLY was set on staying in Barcelona or at worst Seville because of his wife.

It's ridiculous to compare him to FDJ and incredibly unfair. Literally comparing a man who benched Xavi to a kid from Ajax and expect the same level

I like you.
 

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