George_Costanza
Active member
What Frank de Boer is saying has nothing to do with how good he is as a coach. He pointed out the obvious, EV has a history of ruining talents and playing them out of position just to fit in someone he likes.
21 - Frenkie de Jong
- Thread starter DonAK
- Start date
What Frank de Boer is saying has nothing to do with how good he is as a coach. He pointed out the obvious, EV has a history of ruining talents and playing them out of position just to fit in someone he likes.
BBZ8800
Senior Member
You guys didn't watch Barca pre-Pep, right?
Spoilers:
1. That was the only era ever when we were lucky with La Masia talents
2. That was the only era ever when we had key players with obvious positions like Xavi-Iniesta-Busi, when there was no need to play them out of positions.
But Pep managed to ruin even that when he bought Fabregas and played him and Iniesta out of position.
3. Due to having Xavi-Iniesta-Busi, there was no need for crazy transfers every summer when we were buying overpriced players (especially attackers and midfielders) who don't have a position here like Litmanen, Riquelme, Gerard, Petit, Song, Coutinho, Arda, Hleb, Affelay, Denis and similar.
In short:
= Pep's era is NOT how Barca usually works.
Gaspart's era and a current era is how Barca usually works.
We are chaotic, too emotional, without a long term plan and we are just buying random superstar players.
Frank De Boer is talking shit.
He played here under Gaspart with Litmanen, Riquelme, Mendieta, Gerard, Petit.
He should know a little bit more about Barca and playing players out of position.
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George_Costanza
Active member
the first Barca jersey my father bought me was like this, so guess since when I'm a Barca fan?
serghei
Senior Member
Lol, have you heard about someone like Cruyff? And the Dream Team? Barcelona had two sides since Cruyff's influence. The ones who believed in that way of playing, and the ones who didn't. The fact that La Masia, which is basically the school of Barcelona's philosophy, resembles more the Cruyff model... it means this is more our style than anything.
La Masia dictates the identity of the club. The technical players who know to keep the ball, pass it in short spaces, move and play 1-2s, that's our style. When La Masia will produce more young Essiens instead of Xavis, Iniestas, Riqui Puigs and Alenas, then yea, you'll have a point.
People speak about Pep era as if it was some alien tactics. It was possession football after all. Refined and polished by the best, but the principles exist for more than 50 years.
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BBZ8800
Senior Member
Can you name me those eras where we didn't follow Crujff, except during mighty EV?
In late 90s, you had Van Gaal, a Dutch coach, follower of Crujff, who won a CL with Ajax, playing Crujff's style before coming to Barca in his first stint.
If Van Gaal was not a symbol of a total football, I don't know who is.
The other thing is our finances.
During Van Gaal, we bought 10 players from Dutch NT team or from Ajax.
Crujff's follower bought: Gk Hesp, CB De Boer, CB Bogarde, RB Reiziger, CM Cocu, CM Ronald De Boer, CAM Litmanen, CF Kluivert, winger Zenden from Dutch NT/Ajax.
How is that investing in La Masia and in "our roots"?
I have no idea what are you rambling about in your post about Essiens and Xavis.
Can you elaborate me:
Bobby Robson
Van Gaal 1
Rexach
Serra Ferrer
Van Gaal 2
Antic
Rijkaard
Those are coaches in between Crujff and Pep.
1. which coaches followed Crujff's ideas?
2. which didn't?
3. during which coaches we believed in La Masia?
4. during which we didn't? And why not?
5. during which coaches we were spending like crazy, and why?
You are talking about La Masia, I am saying that Barca is in general maybe the most chaotic club in the history.
Presidents, fans, papers are always going into extremes with everything, paired with Catalan's latino hot-blooded roots and you have 100s of silly transfers, desperate transfers, electoral signings etc.
Dembele, Coutinho, Neymar 2019 saga. That is more or less how Barca has always worked.
But you guys who grew up in Pep's era created a bubble where you think that we are some organized club thinking about a long term future, building from La Masia and making wise decisions.
How we don't spend money, how we are wise, build from La Masia etc.
Neymar 2019's saga is the most typical example of a classic Barca...
During Pep, our otherwise chaotic club turned into an organized and wise organisation for 3 years.
After that, we returned back to our roots.
Spending like drunken millionaires and changing long term plans each 3 Months with no clear ideas who will be a coach in 6 Months and who will be our transfer targets in 6 Months.
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serghei
Senior Member
[MENTION=16942]BBZ8800[/MENTION], it's pointless.
Both Bartomeu and Valverde have the resources to continue the work we started during Pep, but he's bringing us back into the chaos of before as you say, before even Rijkhaard, because the change started wth Laporta, Rijkhaard and Ronaldinho, Deco, Eto'o etc.
You seem to belive this can't be changed. You're one of the dudes who believe in destiny and fatality? That's how the club is supposed to be and we should all accept Valverde because of this? The faults of the past doesn't have to be the faults of the future as well.
We need to take example of the vision that worked, hire professionals, and cut the dead wood and the incompetents. Your argument that we've been ran by idiots in the past too isn't worth anything.
Both Bartomeu and Valverde have the resources to continue the work we started during Pep, but he's bringing us back into the chaos of before as you say, before even Rijkhaard, because the change started wth Laporta, Rijkhaard and Ronaldinho, Deco, Eto'o etc.
You seem to belive this can't be changed. You're one of the dudes who believe in destiny and fatality? That's how the club is supposed to be and we should all accept Valverde because of this? The faults of the past doesn't have to be the faults of the future as well.
We need to take example of the vision that worked, hire professionals, and cut the dead wood and the incompetents. Your argument that we've been ran by idiots in the past too isn't worth anything.
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Lol bbz is basically saying we were never an organized club and because we had a moment of it, we shouldn't expect or demand that as the standard, but instead settle for mediocrity.
What the hell are you saying man.
You need to stop bro seriously
That's like telling someone who was in a abusive relationship that they shouldn't expect better because that's just what they are and will always be.
What the hell are you saying man.
You need to stop bro seriously
That's like telling someone who was in a abusive relationship that they shouldn't expect better because that's just what they are and will always be.
Dude is basically saying and constantly so I might add.
Ignore Pep's time, we had messi it was a 1 off.
Ignore cryuff time because 4 league & 1 CL wasn't good enough.
In essence the two most successful periods of the club, with clear parallels between both, don't try to build our club around those philosophy, nah it either wasn't good enough or luck
And to a lesser extend ignore are might I say Cherrypick the rijkaard era and make it more about van bommel and less about xavi, deco, the immegence of Messi and iniesta, the wonderful football the return to Barca on the world stage.
Cherry pick those says and turn it into van bommel being the most influential figure during that time.
As what we are all not smart enough to know and accept is that the gaspart era is our gold standard and we shouldn't ask for more, so we should accept the mediocrity we are seeing now, until we get lucky again.
Ignore Pep's time, we had messi it was a 1 off.
Ignore cryuff time because 4 league & 1 CL wasn't good enough.
In essence the two most successful periods of the club, with clear parallels between both, don't try to build our club around those philosophy, nah it either wasn't good enough or luck
And to a lesser extend ignore are might I say Cherrypick the rijkaard era and make it more about van bommel and less about xavi, deco, the immegence of Messi and iniesta, the wonderful football the return to Barca on the world stage.
Cherry pick those says and turn it into van bommel being the most influential figure during that time.
As what we are all not smart enough to know and accept is that the gaspart era is our gold standard and we shouldn't ask for more, so we should accept the mediocrity we are seeing now, until we get lucky again.
Leo_Messi
New member
Not read the current discussion at all but did anyone take a look at De Jong's heat maps from the first 3 league games? Talk about a tactical mismanagement. De Jong, under Malmierda's abhorrent "tactical setup", has been reduced to a pseudo-winger that is covering for Alba. Beyond belief. No wonder he is excelling for the Netherlands in comparison and used to boss it at Ajax.
Criminal not to play De Jong alongside Arthur as well. I am going to lose the plot if De Jong keeps getting played out of position while Arthur is benched for the likes of Roberto, Busquets and potentially Rakitic as well.
Criminal not to play De Jong alongside Arthur as well. I am going to lose the plot if De Jong keeps getting played out of position while Arthur is benched for the likes of Roberto, Busquets and potentially Rakitic as well.
khaled_a_d
Senior Member
Is there is a site that I can get players heat map on regular basis?
messi2140
6racies Xavi
I looked it up , since I was interested in that since you mentioned it.
https://www.sofascore.com/team/football/barcelona/2817
Just click on the game you want --> lineups ---> click on the shirt of the player you want to see the heatmap off.
You can even see the heatmap at the same time and get something like this :
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George_Costanza
Active member
I looked it up , since I was interested in that since you mentioned it.
https://www.sofascore.com/team/football/barcelona/2817
Just click on the game you want --> lineups ---> click on the shirt of the player you want to see the heatmap off.
You can even see the heatmap at the same time and get something like this :
shocking!
serghei
Senior Member
The heat map vs Osasuna is confirmed by the video I made with the tactical analysis. His job so far under Valverde is to back-up Alba. He is either too wide, or too advanced. He very rarely is seen in center channels offering support for the player in possession. In fact, in almost every attack vs Osasuna, we often had no players in the traditional CM spaces. The central midfielders were deployed either as fullback wing partners, or as secondary forwards, waiting for the ball to fall to them by miracle and doing next to nothing in buildup. The build-up was more made by Alba and Pique. 
Tragic. No surprise the service was crap.
Tragic. No surprise the service was crap.
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Kul_z
Senior Member
What the fuck is wrong with the idiot that Valverde is!? Why would you plan your game to get the crosses from the FB all the time when you don't have a target man!?
Not crosses, return balls. He's devastating tactics are waiting for messi to come back so he could save his ass couple of more times
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