Club World Cup

soul24rage

soul24rage

Senior Member
Birdy said:
- That's the evidence we have, because it happened that he played against PSG. Had he played against Bayern Liverpool or Arsenal I would have commented on that

- False equivocation again: we see Bastoni and Julian all year long against top sides, so we can judge their level
- I am not following what Busi is doing in MLS, maybe you know more.

- Right now that he is playing in MLS we can't have a metric, because all stats are calculated in the context of a kindergarten environment like MLS, that masks all flaws.
- Zlatan is far from a 'general consensus'. Zlatan is Zlatan and has his own views. And why should a statement by anyone that was clearly made to lift Messi up, mean or prove anything?

- Eye test against PSG proved to me he can't compete at the highest level. It was not something out of the blue, though. He was in steady decline already during the last Barca years, and more evidently in the PSG years. If he was still playing in Europe past 2023, everyone could have seen the gradual decline year by year

I pointed out very clearly to you central aspects where he has declined. If you choose to turn a blind eye on them, that's your problem mate
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- That's the thing. You are basing everything on that 1 game vs PSG (the European Champions), where he is playing with an MLS side. Julian and Bastoni has a lot more sample size with a top team so this is the argument that I'm trying to disprove your logic of. 1 game cannot be a conclusion of all. I really hope you understand where I'm coming from. Even that one game with the eye test, stats and general consensus shows that he still can compete at the elite level.

- Doesn't matter what Busi does in MLS. I'm talking about dribbling in the CWC which Messi is the #1. You are arguing that Messi is #1 because he can retain the ball while not moving an inch which is what I am counter arguing with Busi because he can do the same thing, but is not high up there.

- Then do you have a statement that shows that Messi cannot compete in the top level?

- Steady decline, yes. He went from GOAT level to one of the best players in the world. It's natural with age. Plus the final years at Barca and PSG does not prove anything as that has to do with bad management from the top level. You of all people should know how Bartomeu has messed up terribly.

- I tackled every declining aspect that you mentioned, except for Acceleration, and I haven't heard a good counter argument for all of them.
 
N

NKMaribor

Active member
Hoping for another Rudiger masterclas against PSG, so that club brings another CB a year early than planned. Also Ceballos is a donkey. Another easy transfer to happen.
 
M

Maradona37

Well-known member
Bit weird that there's a European referee tonight. It doesn't matter much really but normally unless two teams are from the same confederation they ensure it's a referee
from a confederation neither team is from. I doubt he will favour Chelsea, but still.
 
Loki

Loki

Well-known member
Maradona37 said:
Bit weird that there's a European referee tonight. It doesn't matter much really but normally unless two teams are from the same confederation they ensure it's a referee
from a confederation neither team is from. I doubt he will favour Chelsea, but still.
Click to expand...
That's because all other refs are even worse and not used to high tempo. Fifa doesn't want the risk to make it a shitshow out of the last rounds most likely.
 
Birdy

Birdy

Senior Member
soul24rage said:
- That's the thing. You are basing everything on that 1 game vs PSG (the European Champions), where he is playing with an MLS side. Julian and Bastoni has a lot more sample size with a top team so this is the argument that I'm trying to disprove your logic of. 1 game cannot be a conclusion of all. I really hope you understand where I'm coming from. Even that one game with the eye test, stats and general consensus shows that he still can compete at the elite level.

- Doesn't matter what Busi does in MLS. I'm talking about dribbling in the CWC which Messi is the #1. You are arguing that Messi is #1 because he can retain the ball while not moving an inch which is what I am counter arguing with Busi because he can do the same thing, but is not high up there.

- Then do you have a statement that shows that Messi cannot compete in the top level?

- Steady decline, yes. He went from GOAT level to one of the best players in the world. It's natural with age. Plus the final years at Barca and PSG does not prove anything as that has to do with bad management from the top level. You of all people should know how Bartomeu has messed up terribly.

- I tackled every declining aspect that you mentioned, except for Acceleration, and I haven't heard a good counter argument for all of them.
Click to expand...

You are circling back on things i have already debunked. Which means you have no new points to put forward.
I will answer one last time:

- Julian and Bastoni are seen every week against top opposition. So we have huge sample to judge.
With Messi currently we don't have. That's why any judgment has to be based on limited sample, like a CWC game. It's not ideal, but the best metric we have. The other option, judging from MLS games, is just laughable

- I explained three times already how dribbling is calculated. Go read it yourself. You have nothing to answer to that, and reply with false hypotheticals

- Statements, either positive or negative, about someone prove shit. This is just PR. I will never use a statement as evidence for anything.

- Problem with some of you are that you blame Barto even for things he had nothing to do. He was a disaster, plagued the club, and bankrupted us. What has this to do with Messi being in steady decline on the pitch year after year? He was a walking problem on the pitch the final years that coaches tried to work around but could not.
Valverde tried, failed. Koeman tried, failed, Pochetino tried, failed, Galtier tried, failed.
No matter the coach, no team with Messi on the pitch could become a top team on club level the last 6 years.
Factos

- You haven't tackled anything. You can't admit the evident: that he can't run with the ball past people, as he used to. I posted video for you to compare and you refuse to do.
You are simply in denial
you can't judge objectively because you are in the spell of your idol
I bet you are still super young.
The inability to judge objectively people you love is something that gets overcome after you mature a bit
 
soul24rage

soul24rage

Senior Member
Birdy said:
You are circling back on things i have already debunked. Which means you have no new points to put forward.
I will answer one last time:

- Julian and Bastoni are seen every week against top opposition. So we have huge sample to judge.
With Messi currently we don't have. That's why any judgment has to be based on limited sample, like a CWC game. It's not ideal, but the best metric we have. The other option, judging from MLS games, is just laughable

- I explained three times already how dribbling is calculated. Go read it yourself. You have nothing to answer to that, and reply with false hypotheticals

- Statements, either positive or negative, about someone prove shit. This is just PR. I will never use a statement as evidence for anything.

- Problem with some of you are that you blame Barto even for things he had nothing to do. He was a disaster, plagued the club, and bankrupted us. What has this to do with Messi being in steady decline on the pitch year after year? He was a walking problem on the pitch the final years that coaches tried to work around but could not.
Valverde tried, failed. Koeman tried, failed, Pochetino tried, failed, Galtier tried, failed.
No matter the coach, no team with Messi on the pitch could become a top team on club level the last 6 years.
Factos

- You haven't tackled anything. You can't admit the evident: that he can't run with the ball past people, as he used to. I posted video for you to compare and you refuse to do.
You are simply in denial
you can't judge objectively because you are in the spell of your idol
I bet you are still super young.
The inability to judge objectively people you love is something that gets overcome after you mature a bit
Click to expand...
- Looks like you still haven't understood the argument for the sample size of 1. You are the one circling back.

- I read what you said and I counter argued with Busi. I still haven't heard a counter argument from you on this.

- So, we should take your statement as the absolute truth when eye test, stats and general consensus say otherwise? A little arrogant don't you think?

- Decline is inevitable, but better planning should have been done and Barto is responsible for the squad management. Same thing for PSG during that time.

- I tackled every single argument that you made and I'm still waiting for some counter argument. Let me know what YOU think that I haven't made the argued about and I'll let you know.

Ironically, speaking of age and maturity in an argument shows the immaturity of the poster. Disappointed in you that you resort to that tbh.
 
Birdy

Birdy

Senior Member
soul24rage said:
- Looks like you still haven't understood the argument for the sample size of 1. You are the one circling back.

- I read what you said and I counter argued with Busi. I still haven't heard a counter argument from you on this.

- So, we should take your statement as the absolute truth when eye test, stats and general consensus say otherwise? A little arrogant don't you think?

- Decline is inevitable, but better planning should have been done and Barto is responsible for the squad management. Same thing for PSG during that time.

- I tackled every single argument that you made and I'm still waiting for some counter argument. Let me know what YOU think that I haven't made the argued about and I'll let you know.

Ironically, speaking of age and maturity in an argument shows the immaturity of the poster. Disappointed in you that you resort to that tbh.
Click to expand...

- I have understood very well. Not conclusive evidence, because it is sample size of 1.
But only piece of evidence we have. You can't simply discredit it.

- No, you didn't counter. That's a counterfactual fallacy based on "what ifs" and "what if nots"

- It's not my statement. It's my opinion, backed by some evidence.
Zlatan's statement, for instance, has 0 argumentation in it. So it is worth 0.
You haven't proved anything against my claim by stats for the reasons I already explained.

- Eye test also is being called in a totally subjective and idiosyncratic manner by you and others.
Eye test says, for instance, that Messi can't make the dribbling runs he was making in 18/19, but you refuse to acknowledge that.

- You haven't tackled anything, cauz I didn't move past the first point you refuse to acknowledge. If we can't agree on basics, there is no point in moving to all other aspects.

- Squad management is not responsible for Messi's own decline. You, Messi fanboys, have always liked to point to others when it comes to failures, and only to Messi when it comes to successes. Messi could not be competitive at club level at any team past 2019.
That's a fact

PS: You are right. In general, one should not make arguments based on age.
I did not try to discredit every thing you said based on age, but only one particular aspect: that you refuse so blatantly to acknowledge any negatives about Messi in general.
That is a problem and that is very often a symptom of a young age.
 
Loki

Loki

Well-known member
jamrock said:
www.espn.com

Sources: Madrid ask LaLiga to delay opener

Real Madrid have asked LaLiga for their league opener against Osasuna to be rescheduled because of their involvement in the FIFA Club World Cup, sources have told ESPN.
www.espn.com www.espn.com

Madrid ask for more rest,we know it will be given.
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They have to catch up this game at some point anyways. I don't know if it'll be an advantage. But their audacity is disgusting again. It's not like they're forced to participate there. They want the money and they want more rest.
 
M

Maradona37

Well-known member
Can't even be bothered watching this game, to be honest. I've hardly watched any of this since the group stage.

Edit - also, Chelsea with just the three keepers on the bench lol.
 
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