21 - Frenkie de Jong

Dynamic_posession said:
Not just worldclass playmaker infront but also a worldclass physical/athletic destroyer behind is needed for both of them. Pedri and De Jong are similar with Pedri just having better eye for passing.
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Something like that. Anyway, Flick Barcelona is mostly about monster output from attacking players with huge shifts from our wingers Raphinha and Lamine. The Euro Spain won was without him for bigger games, and the league title Xavi won was mostly 1-0 and 2-1 wins playing pragmatic football even vs low level teams.

There's no circumstance so far where Pedri has been the main figure at Barcelona. One of the best 4-5 players sure, but not more than that.

Spain need far more from him to have a shot at winning the World Cup, and he just ain't delivering it.
 
De Jong really offers a lot with the ball, but he can struggle to impose himself physically/defensively.

He doesn't really go into contact much and isn't very aggressive when defending. I wish this part of his game was better. It's not his athleticism either because he is fast and has good stamina, he just doesn't have the tenacity as a defender.

To get the best out of him, as others have mentioned, let him carry the ball from deep as a pivot and he can handle the team's progression on his own.
 
serghei said:
Something like that. Anyway, Flick Barcelona is mostly about monster output from attacking players with huge shifts from our wingers Raphinha and Lamine. The Euro Spain won was without him for bigger games, and the league title Xavi won was mostly 1-0 and 2-1 wins playing pragmatic football even vs low level teams.

There's no circumstance so far where Pedri has been the main figure at Barcelona. One of the best 4-5 players sure, but not more than that.

Spain need far more from him to have a shot at winning the World Cup, and he just ain't delivering it.
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Pedri is great. He's one of the best at what he does.

However, he doesn't have that certain match winning X factor which midfielders like Zidane, De Bruyne and even Pogba had for example. It's physicality, goal threat and a genius eye for the killer pass.

These midfielders could win you any game any time even when they are performing badly. Iniesta has that clutch gene too in the biggest moments.

Pedri just isn't a moments player with X factor like them. He isn't supposed to be the main man of the team you're building. But Pedri is brilliant at what he does.
 
Total-Football said:
Being on the opposite side of fandom i can attest to u with complete honesty that not even once i worried when dejong had the ball in midfield even in instances when he had some space. Dude is helpless when it comes to contributing meagningfully in the final third.
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He is actually worse further up the pitch.

His best on ball work is coming from deep where he has the ability to take bigger touches and burst out of defense.

In the final third the gaps get smaller and you have to make sharper movements with the ball, which doesn't suit him, he is more transitional.
 
jamrock said:
Offers a lot with the ball?.
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Yes, there are not a lot of players who can carry the ball like him out of defense, if you notice, despite dribbling a lot, he rarely ever loses it and can burst through midfield easily. And in situations where the team is struggling to break pressure that's hugely important.

The problem is that he could be better at developing the final action, when the spaces get smaller and marking is tighter he's worse.

He also sometimes can pass instead of carrying it but doesn't move it quick enough.

He plays with too many touches to be effective in the final third where you need quick ball movements and to play with one or two touches to form your actions.
 
Temptation said:
A great ball carrier and a good high percentage passer.

Just don't expect him to be KDB or Xavi.
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If Frenkie had the brain of Xavi, he would've the best in the world, but his decisions let him down much more than his technique does.

Some players play with a certain style because it's conditioned by their limitations but he does have the technique to pass from anywhere and the athleticism to perform in the final third too.

His decisions and awareness cost him more.
 
ajnotkeith said:
If Frenkie had the brain of Xavi, he would've the best in the world, but his decisions let him down much more than his technique does.

Some players play with a certain style because it's conditioned by their limitations but he does have the technique to pass from anywhere and the athleticism to perform in the final third too.

His decisions and awareness cost him more.
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I don't think he can pull off defense splitting passes and genius final balls like Xavi or KDB. That kind of vision is extremely rare.

I haven't seen him show much long range passing/Hollywood passing either. He recycles possession well over short distances.
 
ajnotkeith said:
Yes, there are not a lot of players who can carry the ball like him out of defense, if you notice, despite dribbling a lot, he rarely ever loses it and can burst through midfield easily. And in situations where the team is struggling to break pressure that's hugely important.

The problem is that he could be better at developing the final action, when the spaces get smaller and marking is tighter he's worse.

He also sometimes can pass instead of carrying it but doesn't move it quick enough.

He plays with too many touches to be effective in the final third where you need quick ball movements and to play with one or two touches to form your actions.
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He offers "a lot " on the ball. Not with the ball.

Key difference there.
 
Temptation said:
Pedri just isn't a moments player with X factor like them. He isn't supposed to be the main man of the team you're building. But Pedri is brilliant at what he does.
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Right. And that's how you get the best out of him. You surround him with players who get the job done in positions with more traffic, more athletic players, better shooter, with better end product. And that's what Barcelona did under Flick, albeit with limited funds that slow things down.

Spain struggle at the moment because some of those players are way off form compared to the Euros, and some declined, got injured repeatedly and don't have the same impact. And Pedri is not great enough to lead the team, he is not a complete midfielder in that sense like some greats of the past.
 
Frenkie was ok last night..far better than Gravenberch but still not great.

Koemans tactics of some bizzare deep sitting 523 that just had midfield patrolling on front of defence was horrendous.

They deserved to go out.

Two evenly matched teams and unlucky to meet Morocco so early... but their set up was awful and to protect Van Dijk it appeared.

Could be worse.

Could be getting knocked out earlier like Valverde who coudnt beat Cape Verde or Saudi Arabia. or Kimmich did by Paragauy etc.
 
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They just feared Morocco to some absurd levels. Was quite hilarious. I mean, come on, they lost the group vs Brazil, and even looked in trouble defensively vs Haiti. You'd think they were playing some world beaters.
 
- assist to Raphinha vs PSG in UCL quarter finals
- assist to Lewandowski Supercup final vs Real
- goal vs Real Copa del Rey final
- assist to Gavi Supercup final


Off the top of my head

If G/A is what matters to you then there you go. But we know Pedri is not defined by that. Only big game he truly disappointed was Atletico in UCL this season

He is still 22, a relatively young player. And you are talking about how Iniesta had the clutch gene and scored so many key goals. Pedri's career is long, give him some time. And Iniesta is not good because of this, he is good because of all the 90 minute masterclasses he had. In UCL finals, in el clasicos, in normal league games. It all counts. As for these clutch goals even Gotze scored a winning goal for Germany. It can happen in those moments
 
serghei said:
They just feared Morocco to some absurd levels. Was quite hilarious. I mean, come on, they lost the group vs Brazil, and even looked in trouble defensively vs Haiti. You'd think they were playing some world beaters.
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It reminds me of during his first season when we had the big run and were looking to win the league, then he brought Pique back and we ended up losing to Granada and dropping more points.

He can actually coach decent attacking sides but just reverts to cowardly and ultra conservative tactics far too easily when under pressure.

Netherlands in this tournament looked great playing on the front foot and put their opponents under serious pressure, but he gave that up in the first match against a side of similar strength.

As you say, Morocco is not some giant... Good team, but not good enough to justify parking the bus against, not close to England, Argentina, France etc, Netherlands should be the ones making them park the bus.
 
Koeman was terrified of Morroco getting anwywhere near Van Dik.

Went 5 at back to stop him having to pick anyone up and put TWO midfielders on front of that to try and shut off balls in.

Then three up top to pump ball long to early.

Horrendous.

523 trying to sit deep and play on break. Deserved to go out.

Morroco are a decent side but even Scotland showed they creaked a bit when went on front foot v them as opposed to sitting back.
 
MonteCuler said:
- assist to Raphinha vs PSG in UCL quarter finals
- assist to Lewandowski Supercup final vs Real
- goal vs Real Copa del Rey final
- assist to Gavi Supercup final


Off the top of my head

If G/A is what matters to you then there you go. But we know Pedri is not defined by that. Only big game he truly disappointed was Atletico in UCL this season

He is still 22, a relatively young player. And you are talking about how Iniesta had the clutch gene and scored so many key goals. Pedri's career is long, give him some time. And Iniesta is not good because of this, he is good because of all the 90 minute masterclasses he had. In UCL finals, in el clasicos, in normal league games. It all counts. As for these clutch goals even Gotze scored a winning goal for Germany. It can happen in those moments
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Of course, he is super young (maybe not so much for today standards, but still...) and few were this good at his age. But he has to be taken a bit outside of his comfort zone. It's why I want a defensive midfielder.
 
Netherlands didn't look great this tournament
Japan played them evenly.

The sweds are crap, Norway and the Dutch put 9/10 combined pass them in the last 2-3 weeks.

Tunisia also crap

In the friendlies leading up to the world cup and vs Japan you saw their real level.

Brazil and Germany similar in that way.
 
No one has looked great yet really bar France front four.

Netherlands unlucky to run into toughest 2nd place team they could have faced but also didnt do enough when met them.

If Pep fancied it he would be better for them.

Get Van Dijk to retire and push a higher line and try to allow midfield to control game more.

Likes of Gravenberch yesterday had 18 passes... 18 and barely won ball back.

Timber came on for him and had 6 passes made.. thats 24 passes across 120 mins of football for essentially one midfielder in a team like Netherlands is chucking it from Koeman and cowardly.

He was shit but also the blame is on Koeman for giving up the midfield more or less completely to try and sit on front of a back 5.

Genuinely may be worst tactics have ever seen.

There is no shame going out on pens to a team like Morroco for Netherlands but the manner of it was pathetic.
 
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