Bayern Munchen

[fergus90]

I was always an admirer of Bayern, and this Bayern in the last few years (bar Lewa) sucks completely.

I loved German's physique, German's mental strength, German's being ruthless.
The current Bayern is like some soft version of Bayern's skills from 10 or 20 years ago.

In 2001, they had CM Effenberg, and then attack with Elber and on the bench attackers: Jancker, Zickler, Santa Cruz, Pizarro
In 2009: Van Bommel, Schweinsteiger, Robben, Olic, Muller
In 2012: Kroos, Schwein, Muller, Robben, Ribery, Olic
In 2013: Schwein, Robben, Muller, Mandzukic, Ribery

In the last 9 years (since Pep took over and made Bayern more "technical" than before), Bayern actually has only 1 CL final, compared to 3 finals in 4 years prior to that.

It seems that not everyone can play every system/type of football.
Bayern were better when they played more German/physical football than the current softer-technical version.
Also, a lot of people admire Kimmich, but imo, he is a pure shit compared to Bayern's more impactful midfielders in the last 20 years like Effenberg, Van Bommel, Schweinsteiger or Ballack.
Also, I don't like these new gen of wingers like Sane and Coman, who are some sort of modern-smart-linkup wingers. Compare those two to era when they had a good old Robben and Ribery.

Also, from Pizarro, Zickler, Jancker and co they went to Choupo Moting.

All in all, for me, who is a silent Bayern's admirer for years = the turn which they took since 2013 seems to be an absolute disaster results wise.

Kimmich is class though and assisted their CL final winning goal. Ballack and Van Bommel never won the CL with Bayern and Schweinsteiger won it once in his career.

Their wingers are obviously a big downgrade but players like Ribery and Robben don’t come around too often.

 

[serghei]

I was always an admirer of Bayern, and this Bayern in the last few years (bar Lewa) sucks completely.

I loved German's physique, German's mental strength, German's being ruthless.
The current Bayern is like some soft version of Bayern's skills from 10 or 20 years ago.

In 2001, they had CM Effenberg, and then attack with Elber and on the bench attackers: Jancker, Zickler, Santa Cruz, Pizarro
In 2009: Van Bommel, Schweinsteiger, Robben, Olic, Muller
In 2012: Kroos, Schwein, Muller, Robben, Ribery, Olic
In 2013: Schwein, Robben, Muller, Mandzukic, Ribery

In the last 9 years (since Pep took over and made Bayern more "technical" than before), Bayern actually has only 1 CL final, compared to 3 finals in 4 years prior to that.

It seems that not everyone can play every system/type of football.
Bayern were better when they played more German/physical football than the current softer-technical version.
Also, a lot of people admire Kimmich, but imo, he is a pure shit compared to Bayern's more impactful midfielders in the last 20 years like Effenberg, Van Bommel, Schweinsteiger or Ballack.
Also, I don't like these new gen of wingers like Sane and Coman, who are some sort of modern-smart-linkup wingers. Compare those two to era when they had a good old Robben and Ribery.

Also, from Pizarro, Zickler, Jancker and co they went to Choupo Moting.

All in all, for me, who is a silent Bayern's admirer for years = the turn which they took since 2013 seems to be an absolute disaster results wise.

You have to understand that Pep's Barcelona were a team like no other. It's understandable even top 5 clubs like Bayern were swayed by that playstyle and wanted a piece of the pie, so they got Pep, and later managers who resemble Pep's ideas.

Only you seem to think Pep's Barca was anything but a legendary side you'll probably never see again. A style so powerful that forces itself on any opponent is gonna get a massive following, by a bunch of teams looking to get close to it, replicate it, and attempt to better it. It's basically the type of superiority of play that no doubt makes an arrogant club like Bayern very jealous.

 

[KingLeo10]

We're a little biased around here, but whenever I see the discussion of the best club sides of all time, it almost exclusively centers around:

Guardiola's Barca 08-11, Ajax 70-73, Milan 88-90, and RM 1955-1960.

Other teams such as Bayern 74-76 and RM 14-18 also won a lot of European Cups but they're not quite held in the same rarified air because they didn't overwhelm the opponents and win with flair (RM did in 2014 and 2017, but their 2016 win was piss poor and 2018 was also so-so, for example).

Ajax and Bayern both did a CL 3 peat in the 70s but Ajax was destroying the likes of Bayern, Juventus, Milan etc to win their cups while Bayern won theirs versus less opposition and in less style (needed a replay to beat AM lol).

 

[BBZ8800]

Some weeks ago, I made a post comparing Bayern's big CL KO game record from 10-21 to Barca's from 06 to 15 (our golden era) to RM's from 2011 - 2018 (RM golden era). Barca and RM had like a 66-70% W percentage while Bayern's was 50-50 (Liverpool has also been 50-50 in the last 5 years). The Barca - Real model is still among the best IMO. In the modern era, RM has 7 CLs, we have 5, Milan has 5, Bayern have 3, and Pool/United have 2. RM just had a tad bit more professional and mentally stronger players than us.

I am not saying that Barca's or RM's model isn't the best.
But it is the best for THEM.

Even though I would like more physical Barca, it seems (as seen under Xavi) that we play the best in a good, old Barca's way.

On the other hand, I don't think that Barca's way or Spanish way suits Bayern that much.
Bayern was the best when they were Bayern, with some touch of technique.

About Bayern being Bayern in the 70s, 80s and 90s, well the Barca was also Barca and we won 1 CL till Messi.
About Bayern losing a lot of finals, in 1999, they were the best team all season, and leading 1:0 till the 90th minute against Man Utd, having two posts at 1:0, and lost 1:2 from two corners in 2 minutes.
That is really like wtf once in a million situation.
In 2012, they started to celebrate too soon and conceded from Drogba in the 88th minute.
Robben missed a pen in extra time at 1:1.

So, easily they could have had 2 more CL titles.

Also, during their first peak in the late 90s and early 00s:
1999: they lost CL final to Man Utd in the 90th minute
Now check this, back then RM and Bayern were the two strongest sides in Europe and they were unlucky to be paired against eachother every single season in quarters or semis:
2000: semis: RM:Bayern 2:0, 1:2
2001: semis: Bayern:Rm 1:0, 2:1
2002: quarters: RM:Bayern 1:2, 2:0
2004: round of 16: RM:Bayern 1:1, 1:0

So, from 1999 to 2004, in 6 seasons, Bayern lost KO matches only to RM, and to Man utd in the 90th minute (and 2003 in the 2nd round of group stage).

CL final from 1999: leading 1:0, hitting a crossbar twice, losing 1:2 with the most wtf goals in the history of CL finals:

 

[serghei]

Madrid these days are more Bayern-like than Bayern. There was always a similarity between Madrid and Bayern for me, in the sense that Bayern were the Madrid of the non-Latin Europe.

Tough, athletic, peculiar combination of leaders, strong players, fast ones, and technical ones. Very balanced teams. Whereas Barca is like a team that is pumped up technically and in terms of possession and attacking tactics, but with more deficiencies in other areas (on and off the field).

So when you have a Barca genius generation that is designed to play a specific way from an early age, they end up looking like magicians with a connection and a fluidity that is just inaccessible to more heterogeneous assembled teams. But the flip side of that coin is that such a generation happens very rarely, and in the long run, while Barca may produce higher peaks of play, Bayern and Madrid have a better plan to win games. Their recipe for success is not as idealistic and as finicky as Barca's.

 

[KingLeo10]

About Bayern being Bayern in the 70s, 80s and 90s, well the Barca was also Barca and we won 1 CL till Messi.

Yeah, but this points to a different conclusion...irrespective of the style of the club, you need legends like Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Eto'o, R10, Puyol, Alves etc. and Neuer, Robben, Ribery, Bastian, Lahm, Lewa etc. to win CLs. It doesn't matter if the manager is Jesus himself if the players are shit.

We both agree on that lol. I think you just like the consistency of Bayern results with their German style (most matches are evenly contested) while I like the AMAZING highs of Barca (when we peak, we annihilate the opposition and leave no doubt) and accept some of the insane lows that follow (the CL humiliations when our seniors are past it). Usually, the lows aren't more than 2-3 years (as after R10's peak) but Barto just made it worse and made it a 5-6 year stretch.

 

[KingLeo10]

RM are some hybrid of Bayern and Barca, as serghei mentions. They have the best of both worlds, and should be the team to bandwagon in CL if all you care about is winning.

Even their washed up seniors (and also without their standout player of the era CR7) are enough to go to back to back CL semis while eliminating the likes of Pool, Chelsea, PSG on the way lol.

 

[Luftstalag14]

Losing Lewandowski and Mueller especially (Neuer too but he might have a few more great years left and they have got Nueble to replace him) in a few years will be a blow to Bayern as they are very hard to replace. Lewandowski is a given, Mueller too, even though I often said that I couldn't stand him but the Raumdeuter is truly a great player, with him on the pitch they have a great chance to win key and hard games. Not only can he score those clutch goals (not yesterday though, had two key chances that were missed, and Naglesmann went as far as kind of blaming Mueller ), he has been racking up assists. He will be sorely missed by them.

That said, I don't necessarily see a slump from them, I expect them to continue to dominate Bundesliga and be a regular CL quarterfinalist (if not semifinalist or even further) in the foreseeable future. They players they lost are mostly due to age, with the exception of Alaba and Sule perhaps and I'd argue none of them are not irreplaceable. They still have many world class players like Kimmich, Coman, Sane(? to me he is up and down too much), Gnabry (if he renews), Goretzka, Davies, Lucas Hernades, Musiala, Pavard etc. They also have their own midfield wonderkid Paul Wanner coming up. Not sure how good Gravenberch is and how he will help them revitalize their midfield. And Mazraoui, question mark there.

But in the long run, their grip of the Bundesliga will loosen slightly, as long as 50+1 is still in place in Germany, and their competitiveness in Europe might take a hit too. But with the new UEFA FFP rules (no more than 70% of revenue spent on wage bills/staff cost after 2025 I believe), they might get a lifeline. We will see.

 

[serghei]

RM are some hybrid of Bayern and Barca, as serghei mentions. They have the best of both worlds, and should be the team to bandwagon in CL if all you care about is winning.

Even their washed up seniors (and also without their standout player of the era CR7) are enough to go to back to back CL semis while eliminating the likes of Pool, Chelsea, PSG on the way lol.

They do have things similar to Barca in the sense that "accidents" happen to them rather frequently at a big stage. Even in 2001, they needed penalties to beat Valencia. After Madrid beat them 3-0 a year before.

Just not quite as cutthroat as Madrid against teams showing up with intensity. In that sense, they are like Barca. They can be sucker-punched by these teams. This almost never happens with Madrid. If Madrid play vs a non-special team in a big game, no matter how inspired that team is, somehow Madrid find a way to win at an incredible rate.

Stuff like Ajax tie happen to them far less than they do with Barca, Bayern, or any other equivalent big club.

 

[Luftstalag14]

It shows the importance of having sensible people in the board room too which they've lost since Hoeness and Rummenigge left and what contributed to the downfall in recent years at Barcelona. They've also lost quality players for peanuts and replaced them with the likes of Omar Richards, Bouna Sarr, Chopo Moting etc the last year.

Soon as they have injuries, the quality of their squad drops massively.

Omar Richards might still have a future with them, he hasn't played enough so far but I think many Bayern fans actually rate him quite highly. Chopo Moting was bought as a sub anyways, kind of like our Braithwaite in the past and Luuk this season. Bouna Sarr is a bust for sure.

 

[Temptation]

Nagelsmann throws Muller under the bus.

Can picture a massive divide in the Bayern camp especially with the presence of Brazzo.

 

[Temptation]

Omar Richards might still have a future with them, he hasn't played enough so far but I think many Bayern fans actually rate him quite highly. Chopo Moting was bought as a sub anyways, kind of like our Braithwaite in the past and Luuk this season. Bouna Sarr is a bust for sure.

Simple thing about this Bayern squad is that:

Wingers are extremely inconsistent.

Defenders are poor(except Lucas).

Key players like Goretzka and Phonzie are injury prone. Kimmich is half the player without Goretzka.

Don't have strength in depth like we or City have right now.

 

[serghei]

Bayern built their core in the era of low-money signings. They got Lewandowski for free. Try to get Haaland which is an inferior player even. It's gonna cost you 250m+.

 

[Luftstalag14]

[MENTION=16942]BBZ8800[/MENTION], great to see you coming back to commenting on football.

It is a matter of personal taste for sure, the Bayern I liked the most was Heynckes' Bayern which in my opinion is a combination of both "German physique, German mental strength, German's being ruthless" that you were talking about and the technical and tactical finesse introduced by Louis van Gaal. They were so mobile, quick and pressing like we were but also super physical and relentless, having different gameplans up their sleeves instead of just playing the ground game and passing the balls around, or only hoofing long balls. Multidimensional might be the word. That was the perfect combination in my opinion.

Becoming "softer" and more technical is the trend in world football that no club can avoid, I think.

 

[Temptation]

Bayern's downfall is basically an indirect indication of the fact that the game is gonna be ruled by money for years to come.

In the past 2 years, we can see that gradually Bayern are struggling to keep its players and truly can't keep up with wage demands and agent issues.


Another proof of this would be the crazy financial package Haaland and his entourage are demanding.

The Neymar transfer has really turned the market mental. Fitting that it was by a state funded club.

The old guard of Football will soon be in trouble. Sustainability of sporting models are gonna get tougher and tougher.

I can see a future where even filthy rich clubs like Real Madrid and Manchester United struggle to keep up with the City's, the PSG's, the Newcastle's in the market.

Football is going to implode soon. The desire for a Super League was another indication in this regard.

There's widespread dissatisfaction and grievances from top to bottom of the Football Hierarchy.