8 - Pedri

Bobo32

Senior Member
Was just going to post that article, that I ended up at by following your link in ter Stegen's thread!
It seems to go against much of what I have said (and even more so the consenus here) about Pedri being run to the ground.
I was less impressed by his first half a year than many here, more critical than most in the first few months of 2021, and see less of a decline than most here though... But I see a decline, like everyone else!

Some of the stats are a bit surprising, I have a few thoughts about them:
  • Firstly, something that was mentioned en passant is his change of position throughout the season - he played as a RM against RM f.e, and mostly as one of three or four #10 at the start of the season...
  • How representative are these four statistics on his fatigue? What about a simple km/game or sprints per game? I'd also like something to show if he plays more conservatively now or not.
  • What exactly is the definition of a 'pressure' for example? I was surprised to see De Jong so low in pressures, my eye tells me they are both just a bit too slow to pressure - not that De Jong is Messi-level while Pedri is the best in the team by a margin...
  • What are the exact boundaries of a progressive pass? I saw him attempt more cutting passes in the first half of the season, but seeing a lot more of the ball from his MC position obviously (and also more players in front of him naturally)

Btw, the circle diagram shows the 95th percentile at the edge of the circle, correct? He is only in the 95th percentile in touches per area, out of these statistics? Given that he played more offensive roles than MC more than many MC:s this season, I don't know what to make of that diagram...
 

BusiTheKing

Senior Member
Player A and player B receive the ball 4 times in similar situations.

Player A makes two safe pass and two riskier plays. One of the plays fail. The other one he pulls off and he sets up a goal.

Player B makes makes four safe plays, carrying the ball forward by unthreateting paths, addings zero attacking value.

Player B is superior on both ball retention and ball progression. Congrats.
 

te amo barca

Blaugrana al vent
Player A and player B receive the ball 4 times in similar situations.

Player A makes two safe pass and two riskier plays. One of the plays fail. The other one he pulls off and he sets up a goal.

Player B makes makes four safe plays, carrying the ball forward by unthreateting paths, addings zero attacking value.

Player B is superior on both ball retention and ball progression. Congrats.

Nice mental gymnastics.
 

BusiTheKing

Senior Member
the only way i'd ever consider ball retention or ball progression a meaningful statistic in discriminating VIRTUE and not TYPE would be tying in correlations with xA or something
 

serghei

Senior Member
Player A and player B receive the ball 4 times in similar situations.

Player A makes two safe pass and two riskier plays. One of the plays fail. The other one he pulls off and he sets up a goal.

Player B makes makes four safe plays, carrying the ball forward by unthreateting paths, addings zero attacking value.

Player B is superior on both ball retention and ball progression. Congrats.

How about when Player A fails that one pass in a bad position and the other team makes a counter and scores? Because Player A doesn't have the capacity to differentiate when you have to try a difficult pass, and when you have to temporize and play it safe.

And how about when Player B makes 3 out of 4 good passes, neither of which is registered as an assist because they are made in deeper positions, but all 3 passes put the attackers and attacking midfielders in great positions.

Stats are deceiving when used for players who play deeper, CMs have great organizational, and game-reading skills. If you play most of the time in the center circle, then you will not register many direct contributions, more advanced players will, but your role is key in the build-up.

Seems like everyone is in love these days with the athletic box-to-box profile, while the true CM type who dictates the game and has great skills and intelligence in organizing the midfield is undervalued. Probably why guys like Moriba get more time than someone like Puig, even though they aren't as good.

Pedri is an excellent CM. I hope both him and Puig are still around when Xavi will get the job. Pretty sure Xavi will find them both very interesting players.
 
Last edited:

Bobo32

Senior Member
This is the big thing in football, the balance between risk/reward and safety.

The best Barcelona team consisted solely of players who would play the safe option in 4/4 situations, or at the least 3/4 situations. Messi had the ability to at the same time find very threatening and surprising solutions (Busquets, Iniesta, Alves to an extent as well) and he did always play with some risk, but other than that, it was mostly about seeing which safe option was the best to progress, never to risk anything.

Most teams have one or two or three players who have the freedom to play without any safety at all almost. Messi has become that player more and more for Barcelona, Dembele is that player inherently, Suarez was a bit like that as well. The more players like that on the pitch, the more you need to balance, you need to think more about defence, the rest of the players can make fewer mistakes with the ball and so on.

I find that Pedri lacks the ability to find the best option to progress a lot of the time. He is the type of player who looks for a very threatening solution and if he doesn't find it plays the first safe option available. I am glad that he doesn't play with more risk than he does, but his decisions often look a bit out of tune to me.
 

serghei

Senior Member
This is the big thing in football, the balance between risk/reward and safety.

The best Barcelona team consisted solely of players who would play the safe option in 4/4 situations, or at the least 3/4 situations. Messi had the ability to at the same time find very threatening and surprising solutions (Busquets, Iniesta, Alves to an extent as well) and he did always play with some risk, but other than that, it was mostly about seeing which safe option was the best to progress, never to risk anything.

We didn't play with a lot of perceived risk, because the movement of the best Barcelona teams was absolutely superb. It needed the best of defensive performances to stifle us on the ball. And even those defensive performances would not suffice if we were smart enough to not miss the chances we still made. Risk becomes greater when your team is less mobile and more predictable on the ball. The best Barca sides in the modern era were extremely fluid, which made them incredibly hard to press well. Pressing a team like that was near suicidal. And parking the bus was a way to counter that movement by Barca. You basically took out their ability to maneuver the spaces by conceding the space and putting 2 close lines together in front of the 16m box.

Most teams have one or two or three players who have the freedom to play without any safety at all almost. Messi has become that player more and more for Barcelona, Dembele is that player inherently, Suarez was a bit like that as well. The more players like that on the pitch, the more you need to balance, you need to think more about defence, the rest of the players can make fewer mistakes with the ball and so on.

I find that Pedri lacks the ability to find the best option to progress a lot of the time. He is the type of player who looks for a very threatening solution and if he doesn't find it plays the first safe option available. I am glad that he doesn't play with more risk than he does, but his decisions often look a bit out of tune to me.

True. Having hero players that are not included in all of the tactical roles and tasks players receive from the manager is one of the biggest problems of star-driven teams: see current PSG and how individual they look. Pochettino can never achieve the same kind of tactical unity and compactness with PSG as he did with his Tottenham team. This is a major reason why Guardiola doesn't sign superstars. Look at his team vs PSG in the tie in midfield and attack. Gundogan, Fernandinho, De Bruyne, Mahrez, Foden, Bernardo. De Bruyne is the only real star, and even he is not your typical flair player, but a more mentally tough competitor that applies himself to every tactical instruction you give him. No "dreamy" artists in that City team.

An elite manager ideally wants his team to follow his instructions. He doesn't want to tailor his tactics and what he can do, in order to give control to star players. Surrender part of his tactical plan, just to appease their mood swings, their selfishness etc. Lesser managers would accept that, and look for workarounds, but the big ones like Guardiola and Klopp would never. Seems like Tuchel is more like them, not surprised he didn't last at PSG. Pochettino would not last either I think. Too meticulous to just leave aspects of the game so loose and uncontrolled, just to pander to the egos of likes of Neymar, Di Maria, Icardi, and Mbappe.

About freedom-players, you can carry one, as Pep's Barca did with Messi, and minimize the effects well. This is part of why Pep moved Messi to false 9 because the striker is the player you can give most freedoms to with the least amount of side effects on the defensive end. That's why even the most defensive teams employ at worst a 4-5-1 defense, and not a 4-6-0. And why these teams are not that affected by a sending-off. Both Inter and Chelsea suffered minimal defensive problems from losing Terry and Motta.

Wingers have a key role in the defensive phase. You just can't do with a lazy winger defensively. It affects the whole flank. This is part of the reason why Pep re-adjusted Messi's positioning, he was very aware of the defensive problems Messi causes. Other managers proved to be either less aware, or not very good at finding ways to deal with that.


I find that Pedri lacks the ability to find the best option to progress a lot of the time. He is the type of player who looks for a very threatening solution and if he doesn't find it plays the first safe option available. I am glad that he doesn't play with more risk than he does, but his decisions often look a bit out of tune to me.

I think Pedri would do better without Messi. We seem to force players to be box-to-box players and attack the opponent's 16m area just so Messi can do his dropping in midfield to play playmaker hero type. This can work well at times because Messi has a sublime ball, but this affects players who are good at playmaking in CM areas - most notably these are Pedri and Riqui Puig - without excelling at providing final product in terms of especially goals.
 
Last edited:

jairzinho

Senior Member
He is ok but not dynamic and vertical enough. He can the find the space well and recieve passes but isn't looking to attack the goal and make shit happen.
 

Home of Barca Fans

Top